coffee wrote on Dec 6, 2008 12:48 PM:
" phil, its amaizing how much you can totally undermind what i said. i dont think i need to say anymore. "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 6, 2008 11:11 AM:
" Christians congratulate themselves for being Christians (in name at least) perpetually it seems but particularly at Christmas because the 'babe in the manger' is the warmest fuzzy of all -- yet another 'reason' Christmas, really a 'paganistic' celebration and regarded as such by the first REAL Christians, those of the early centuries CE, is so popular and commercial. It has become a PUBLIC 'saturnalia' of purchase and consumption a la Dickens extraordinaire. As for 'homeless shelters' and 'soup kitchens' we actually ought to be ASHAMED there is ANY NEED for either in this nation of incredible wealth, but the insatiable greed generated the past eight years has now made those shelters and kitchens FAR MORE NECESSARY than ever. As for hospitals by the way the Christian denomination that supports the most hospitals IN THE WHOLE WORLD is the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. I'm glad that the literalist protestants here acknowledge that!... "
seriously now wrote on Dec 6, 2008 7:17 AM:
" It's interesting to see how any discussion that involved the "inner" life of a person and how it shapes how that person acts is the target of scorn. And yet many of the same posters would quickly jump on any article that criticizes any "alternative" lifestyle (and resulting consequences). Why is that one group can demand to be left along and enjoy equal rights while another that claims to be religious cannot?
And also: Where are the homeless shelters and hospitals run b y the "free thinkers?" Please direct me to their websites. "
Achristian wrote on Dec 5, 2008 4:36 PM:
" I am not sure how, by celebrating the birth of Jesus is cramming our beliefs down peoples throats. But speaking on the subject, the FFRF placed a very devisive and derogatory placard in the state of Washington Rotunda next to a nativity scene, a Menorah and Christmas Tree. I have no problem if the Atheist's wants to place a symbol of their non belief there, but an out right attack on what others believe in is mean spirited. The symbols of both the Jewish and Christian faith are not attacking each other, or other relgions or even non-believers. To even add more mean spirit to it, Mr barker in a TV interview called Baby Jesus a little dictator. Is that their view of compassion and tolerance? "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:38 PM:
" To MidwestAtheist, how do Christians 'cram Christmas down anyones throat'?
Personally, I love this time of the season with the lights glowing under new fallen snow, more time spent with family, and singing songs that remind me of Christmas's of years ago, but I too HATE the commercialization of Christmas. I HATE the pressure to BUY, BUY, BUY. (I also dislike hanging up the lights and decorations, but luckily my wife loves putting that stuff up.)
I don't see Christians as shoving anything down people's thoat, but businesses. I do agree with you that most of what we see as "Christian Christmas" is recycled pagan traditions. Jesus was probably born in the fall, and there is no requirement for people to celebrate that event on any particular date. However, its not a bad thing to rejoice Jesus's birth any day of the year. "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 5, 2008 11:28 AM:
" Oh gee -- I'm not 'cynical' about religions; I'm definitely realistic. Another discovery I've made commenting here on the Trib blog is how little the literalist Christians know or want to know about the two thousand year history of their religion. It's pretty easy to just accept what's presented to one from the pulpit or on a Christian apologist web site or what one hears from 'Faith and the Family' radio etc., but there is SO MUCH MORE to ALL religions than either-or. I heartily recommend Joseph Campbell's very absorbing and informative lectures which are on DVD and tape and must be by now on CDs. Campbell can uh 'literally' open your eyes re: the complexities and fascinations of religious beliefs 'east and west,' 'primitive' and 'sophisticated.' The CULTURE of religions becomes apparent and palpable. I heartily endorse REAL STUDY, not just 'Tell me WHAT to believe'... "
MidwestAtheist wrote on Dec 5, 2008 10:41 AM:
" To PHIL OSIFER: I provide health care in a clinic (I know it blows your mind that an atheist could be compassionate for people), which is closed on Dec. 25. So how do you propose that I work. Besides, I have no problem taking December 25th off because it is a secular holliday, and it has been one since our secular government began recognizing it as an observed federal holiday. I have no problem exchanging gifts, putting up a tree, decorating with santa and snowmen, etc. Christians- in their zeal to force their holliday down our throats- have effectively taken Christ out of Xmas all on their own. Also, you may want to take a look at the history of Christmas, and discover that you are celebrating a pagan holiday (the winter solstice and saturnalius) that the christians stole centuries ago. "
PHIL OSIFER wrote on Dec 5, 2008 7:23 AM:
" Midwest and Michael you two should open your own churcha and get a pulpit. You 2 are so synical. Midwest I hope that you plan to work on Dec. 25th since you do not celebrate Christmas you have no right taking a day off. Michael you can watch over him. Seriously I think Advent is a beautifical part of the season and there are usually many Choir concerts with beautiful music "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Dec 4, 2008 5:11 PM:
" Coffee, a few more things, I don't convert or change anyone. If a person learns of Jesus through me, and accept Jesus as their savior, great, but that isn't me changing them, it is Jesus.
As for joining a 'religion', I too am against that. What I have through Jesus is a way of life, not a membership to some man-made church or set of rules.
On proof, I have the proof of Jesus in my soul (the Holy Spirit). You too can have that proof, but only after you accept Jesus on faith. I realize that isn't how you want the proof, but that's how God set it up. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Dec 4, 2008 5:01 PM:
" Coffee,
I understand that part of the reason you reject Jesus as the way, is that you want God to prove it to you in some scientific type way, but isn't that rejecting part of what you were born with to analyze the world with? What I mean is that you have your five physical senses which you accept their responses as truth. You use your reasoning/mental skills to attempt to deduce right from wrong and settle on what seems best. But do you use your spiritual soul to weigh the evidence?
I have and in all area's (physical/mental/spiritual), I have found Jesus and Christianity complete.
Now about witnessing...Suppose I found this fountain of healing in the woods, wouldn't it be good to tell others about it? "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Dec 4, 2008 4:50 PM:
" Coffee,
Second, your phrase "im right and nobody else could ever possibly be right" describes no one on these boards because it is too broad of a statement. What I and others are saying is JESUS is right, and anything contrary to JESUS's teachings is wrong. Another aspect of that phrase could be turned right around at you, because your statements are basically saying that your view point (no absolutes or no way to verify absolute morals) is right and any other view points (as there are absolutes and Jesus as the only way to heaven is one) couldn't possibly be right. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Dec 4, 2008 4:43 PM:
" To coffee,
You raise alot of points in your little post, and I will try to address them all. First, I am 40+ years old, and I have thought alot about Christianity and the evidence that supports it for many years. My findings tell me to spread the good news I have found.
I have also looked at every supposed contradiction that have been brought up these boards as well as others and have found reasonable explanations for the misunderstandings of people. Remember, that the Bible has been thoroughly gone over many times over many years and these supposed contradictions have been looked at and answered. As I pointed out before, there are plenty of places to go if you are truly seeking answers to your questions on 'contradictions'. I like carm.org, but there are plenty of other sites and books on that subject. "
MidwestAtheist wrote on Dec 4, 2008 1:25 PM:
" Achristian: If you'd like to dialogue on these issues or others, please e-mail me at midwestatheist@yahoo.com. Posting in forums is very restrictive and can make it difficult to do a topic justice in <150 words. On your points:
1- Atheists don't dogmatically assert any authors as "true" in order to debunk the bible. With any claim, one has to go with the preponderance of evidence. If the entire fossil record, agricultural evidence, extra biblical records, etc. contradict the Noah's Flood story, then it is reasonable to dismiss this (along with many other bible stories) as myth.
2- I don't know what you mean by "Truth is Relative"- I don't remember Dan Barker saying that. He may have said that Morality is relative, and that is a correct statement.
3- The bible IS in fact full of contradictions, thus unreliable. "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 4, 2008 11:26 AM:
" Religions are flexible I'm arguing, NOT rigid and THAT is their 'secret' of endurance. The hierarchal Greek and Roman religions (Zeus, Jupiter and all that) decayed when the empire became too unwieldly because they were essentially PATRIOTIC religions based entirely on 'la patria,' 'Rome' and Italy. Judaism almost collapsed with the fall and sacking of Herod the great's temple in 66 CE but the Jews artfully created a 'Jerusalem' WITHIN themselves from their painstakingly thorough 'reexamination' of the Torah, i. e. the great Talmud, and so they survived and even thrived as a relatively 'small remnant' in central Europe and remained, until the awfulness and madnesses of the 19th and 20th centuries, a truly important part of 'western' culture. Hinduism and Buddhism endure because they maintain a 'primitive' practice PLUS a highly intellectualized presentation of 'reality.' Religions ARE 'simple' AND 'complex' -- they MUST be BOTH... "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 4, 2008 11:12 AM:
" Believers believe but yeah the Bible IS inherently 'contradictory' or else the religionS it inspires (all THREE) would never have lasted as long as they have. Jesus asserts a selfless pacifism and an incredible unworldly generosity, e. g., 'love your ENEMIES'; 'give to EVERYONE who asks of you' -- noble but unrealistic. Paul, especially in his letter to the Christians in Rome, takes care of that by in effect arguing that the STATE exists through God's will and therefore 'obey the state' -- which will of course ORDER you to KILL your enemies which is what you REALLY wanted to do. God claims that true justice is to raise up 'the widow and the orphan' as MODELS of what a society OUGHT to do but Jesus makes an obscure remark about 'everyone under his own olive tree' and voila! Capitalism is 'blessed'! 'It's a big book' a wise priest said... "
coffee wrote on Dec 3, 2008 5:38 PM:
" i agree with 'MW', its sad that people have to have that mentality of "im right and nobody else could ever possibly be right". even if you think of a christian who is trying to covert people, who would want to go to that religion if the person representing it to them has that mind set.
i hope Phil O'Bates and Achristian could understand this, or even atempt to think about it. "
Double A wrote on Dec 3, 2008 3:10 PM:
" Because of MW's historical posts, I'm biased towards agreeing with him. I like his style. However, I just don't interpret the Jesus in Phil's scripture verses, when I read them, as a crashing bore. Rather, I feel a sensible calm confidence in the words comparable to none other. And this feeling is not inspired by a restless urge to convert people. It's just a logical feeling. The method of Phil's posting them are a bit "in your face" but the naked verse is beautiful. "
Achristian wrote on Dec 3, 2008 2:24 PM:
" To any Atheist: A couple of points I would like your thoughts on that confuse me:
1. Atheists claim that since the Bible was written by humans and humans error, the Bible therefore has errors and thus is not relible. However, they also quote other human authors as true to debunk facts in the Bible. Dan Barker did this often in the recent debate. This is a contradiction.
2. Atheists claim truth is relative, but that in itself is an absolute statement (Fram Dan Barker). Another contradiction.
3. Atheists claim that the Bible is full of contradictions (which it isn't, but will not go into here), and therefore can't be reliable.
In points 1 and 2 above I pointed out contradictions in the Atheists thinking and thus by their own deductions, what an Atheist says cannot be relibale. "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 3, 2008 11:19 AM:
" The 'Midwest Atheist' comment is precisely WHY believers prefer discussion with ardent non-believers -- they BOTH posit either-or with no nuances. What that MEANS of course is that one, once convinced of the counter-argument, CAN as easily go from atheism to belief OR belief to atheism. I myself find ALL religions of GREAT interest for their insights on human perceptions under varying geographical and historical circumstances. I RESPECT ALL religions but give to NONE the 'candle' of the 'RIGHT' one -- THAT depends on you. And sure NO religion is a viable choice also... "
MidwestAtheist wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:53 PM:
" I agree with Dan M in that there is either a god or there is not, either Jesus was god or he was not. There is no debate there. However, the universe looks and behaves exactly as one would expect one to look and behave if there were no omniscient/omnipresent/omnipotent god. So, in the lack of any decent evidence to justify the outrageous claim that such a god exists, I'm going with the null hypothesis. "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:52 PM:
" I in fact always like Jesus -- UNTIL someone like 'PO'B' appears with his pompous piety and boring verse recitations and then I wouldn't be caught uh 'dead' -- or alive for that matter -- in ANY Christian church whatsoever and after all I've KNOWN SO MANY Christians with excellent understandings of other religions and without such knee-jerk responses. The MORE I read 'PO'B' the MORE I appreciate the 'eastern religions' as Dan M has placed them. Dan unfortunately disappears from this scene (meditating no doubt FAR from the madding crowd) and up pops 'PO'B' like Satan in the book of Job! Sigh! 'Lucky' me eh? ('Lucky' as Job!)... "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:38 PM:
" It's 'hard' NOT to have 'PO'B' come to mind whenever the self pious appear in ANY form or forum. And 'PO'B' of course engages below in his age-old practice of 'proof-texting' in which he takes short verses out of context and presents them as 'evidence' -- of what? Well of HIS PIETY of course! He CANNOT discuss OTHER religions as I said because he knows NOTHING about them really so he only repeats himself and dully at that. HIS 'Jesus' ALWAYS comes across as SUCH a CRASHING BORE -- but consider the source hmm... "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:24 PM:
" I'm happy to see that Michael can't get me off of his mind. It means I have posted some things that have stirred his consciousness. Of course it isn't my words that do it, but the Holy Words of God from the Bible.
John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO ONE cometh unto the Father, BUT by me."
1Timothy 2:5 "For [there is] ONE God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
"Come unto me, all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I (Jesus) will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30 "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 2, 2008 11:33 AM:
" It's Dan's practice to sidestep SERIOUS discussion that does not go his way or is not rather simplistic. I truly doubt he KNOWS MUCH about other religions, just as 'Phil O'Bates,' Dan's hyper-literalist protestant mirror, does not either. 'MY religion' is ALWAYS the 'right' one and 'YOURS' is always the 'wrong' one IF it isn't also 'mine'! So any exchange about the actual BELIEFS of another religion gets the silent treatment from Dan M as well. Sure I 'get it' -- HE BELIEVES in the church of Rome's Christianity but there are hundreds of other 'Christianities' and some of THOSE self designated Christians like 'PO'B' think Dan's is little less than idolatry in its practices. A Hindu of course would NEVER accuse Dan of idolatry; nor would a Buddhist for in those religions if you NEED a 'God,' sure choose one and He'll be YOUR God -- but not EVERYONE's... "
coffee wrote on Dec 2, 2008 8:18 AM:
" ok, maybe everybody missunderstood me. different people believe different things to be true. there IS only one truth, one way reality that actually played out,but, in the case of gods existance and jesus and all that, nobody from this age saw or experienced jesus (obviously) and even if one person had, why should other people believe this one pereson? my point is that all people will never line up on one side of the fence on any issue, let the issue of if there is or isnt a god. "
Double A wrote on Dec 1, 2008 1:10 PM:
" In Dan M's defense he did say that either Jesus died on the cross for our sins or he didn't; and either you believe it or you don't. But if you do believe it then of course you'd be a proponent of others believing too. If giving testimony to somebody tramples their own truth, that trampling seems collateral. "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 1, 2008 11:19 AM:
" Also the world is full of fascinations and many atheists for instance find theirs in scientific inquiry, in the minutae of nature from ants to anteaters to the cosmic ones of black holes, quasars, an ever expanding universe etc. There is also the 'interior' of the human mind as per Freud, Jung and others in which religion plays a great role but it is a part, not the 'ultimate.' I can understand that 'Dan M' may feel 'diminished' outside his 'answers' to life but I don't see why HIS answers MUST be everyone's or that others who comprehend things differently somehow 'lack' because Dan feels HE would 'lack' in their place. What is the 'truth' to him is God but Gandhi said it best -- it isn't God Who is 'truth' but 'truth' that IS 'God'... "
Michael Welch wrote on Dec 1, 2008 10:57 AM:
" The 'eastern religions' do NOT believe in a 'personal God' named 'Yahweh' but they do believe that EVERYONE is a 'son' and 'daughter' of 'God,' i. e., the traditional Hindu greeting (of palm against palm raised to one's forehead) acknowledges the 'divine' in EVERY being. All things continue though there are cycles of creation and destruction; and all things are necessary, good and evil, light and dark, yes and no, belief and unbelief. There is no 'war' in the ultimate cosmos to be fought out in a perpetual conflict or in some final apocalyptic age; it simply all turns 'round and starts over again. One plays one's part in the comedy or tragedy as best one can and one can even play it again Sam. That's as profound a view of Being as Christianity's I'd say and rather MORE 'profound' in MY view... "
Dan M. wrote on Nov 30, 2008 9:37 PM:
" I do appreciate the meditation styles of the Eastern Religions. One of my favorite authors, Thomas Merton, wrote a lot about their ways. People can mess up anything, and we'll see bad behaving people in all religions, and in Atheism, so let's not look at them as typical.
Many who practice the Eastern Religions recognize that there is something beyond ourselves, and that we should connect to that in our meditation. As a Catholic, I believe this is God; and to connect with Him is our ultimate purpose for living. So meditating, stopping short of God, would be a letdown. "
Dan M. wrote on Nov 30, 2008 9:24 PM:
" Ah, then as always, it comes down to the issue of truth. You've accepted our society's teaching that there is no absolute truth; that truth is different for different people. I think that makes no logical sense. I'm not talking about personal preferences, what movies you like, how spicy you like your Chili. (Jalapenos...mmmmm) I mean, in this case, the truth of God's existence. Either He is or not. Either Jesus is the Son of God, or not. These can't be true for some and not for others. If God is not real, then no one should believe in Him. If He is, then everyone should believe in Him, and base their meditations on Him. Truth can't be relative, or it's a meaningless concept. Almost any kind of meditation is helpful. But if God is real, it would be much better to base our lives on Him. "
Michael Welch wrote on Nov 30, 2008 2:09 PM:
" It seems to me that one person may NOT 'know' what 'fills' another OR what 'empties' him -- projecting upon someone else one's own dilemmas and one's solutions to them, as far as they go, can be arrogant and presumptuous especially if you don't know that much about say Hinduism or other religions you weren't raised in. 'Do it MY way 'cuz it works for me and others like me' says Dan but then a practitioner of ANY OTHER RELIGION can certainly say the very same... "
coffee wrote on Nov 30, 2008 10:51 AM:
" Dan M.
again you speak of which you do not know. i grew up a Christian and ive experienced how empty a this "god" can make people. ive also experience how full of compassion people that practice eastern philosophy and religion are. i know some Christians that are full of compassion but "god" doesn't seem to have the same effect on every one.
you can make the excuse that its satan or they didn't give themselves fully to god. ive heard it before. my point is that not every one is wired for any one religion. "god" should have taken this into consideration before "he" gave us "free will".
meditation without "god" has left me more full than ive ever been. please dont tell me tell me that im supposed to fill myself with something that i believe is not there. "
Dan M. wrote on Nov 30, 2008 1:20 AM:
" Coffee, I wasn't saying to just sit back and do nothing. I'm talking about the frantic attitude we sometimes fall into. We want to solve all the worlds problems and get depressed if we can't. We'll always end up depressed about it because sooner or later the state of the world will overwhelm us. We can affect a small part of the world as Mother Teresa did. But I think we should also realize that we really have very little control over our world and we should know that God is the only one who can truly change it. (yes, as you say, through us sometimes)
As far as "bashing" another religion, I was simply stating the fact that meditation not centered on Christ will ultimately leave you empty. "
coffee wrote on Nov 29, 2008 10:18 PM:
" hey "Dan M.", you can rant on and on about how good your own religion is, but don't try to bash a religion that you obviously know little about. i could go on and on about how ridiculous Christianity or any other religion is but i wont. that usually just makes things worse and you don't sound exactly like a fundamentalist. (please tell me if you are). as for letting go and letting god take over, thats fine and dandy but don't be ignorant and not take action on negative things in the world and just think "god will take care of it". (ive experienced it) isn't he supposed to work through you or something? "
Michael Welch wrote on Nov 29, 2008 11:49 AM:
" I'm not sure that Mother Teresa was all that she's been purported to be but she at least made an attempt to present a religious humanity which turned out to be good advertising for the Vatican which never got 'poorer' handing out ITS millions to ANYONE, especially the dying poor. The pope lives in complete ease, barring his conscience that is, and when popes get sick THEY NEVER pay the bill. When Benny 16 heads off to Mumbai or Calcutta so to pick up the discarded in the streets THEN he will live up to the 'of Christ' in 'vicar of Christ' but you'll be praying a long time before that happens. 'Dan M' of course according to such 'devout' literalists as 'Phil O'Bates' is actually a 'pagan' and as per his meditations exactly more a 'Hindu.' 'Militant Atheist' comparatively is your 'friend,' Dan... "
Dan M. wrote on Nov 29, 2008 10:02 AM:
" All the great saints have said the same.
"Let go, and let God" was a popular saying
years ago. It's still fits. We've become such
control freaks. Our Blackberry's in hand, we
must be connected and "in control" at all
times or we feel the world will collapse. There
are bad things happening all over the world.
Somehow we feel we must fix it all ourselves.
We can't. Two things from Scripture have always
helped me, "Be Still and know that I Am God",
and "Fear not, I have overcome the World.".
In meditation and prayer, don't empty your mind as in Hinduism, but fill it with God. "
Dan M. wrote on Nov 29, 2008 9:54 AM:
" So sad to see someone like "MidwestAthiest" believe anything Hitchens says. Not worth further comment.
Joe, it's so easy to get depressed at the world.
By looking the the media version of things, it
would seem hopeless. But I'm beginning to think
it's our own arrogance that makes us feel that
way. We think WE have control of the world, and
are sad when it all looks so bad. But the truth
is, we don't have control at all. By spending
time in mediation on scripture and entering
contemplative prayer, I have found that I can
"let go" of my imagined control easier... "
MidwestAtheist wrote on Nov 29, 2008 8:20 AM:
" Mother Teresa was certainly no saint, as the Christian community would love to paint her. She hoarded millions, sending most of it off to the Catholic church, while her home for the dying in Calcutta languished and people suffered agonizing pain. Why did she do this? Because she believed pain was good. Pain brought these people closer to Jesus, representing his pain on the cross. She would tell her "patients" that the pain was "Jesus kissing them". Read Christopher Hitchens' "The Missionary Position" for more on the 'great' Mother Teresa. "
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