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Published - Wednesday, January 07, 2009

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City OKs ambulance referendum with self-imposed ban


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A surprising twist Tuesday means La Crosse voters likely will face an ambulance referendum in April but not the one they expected.

The La Crosse Common Council’s Committee of the Whole voted for an advisory — not binding — referendum on whether to create a city-run ambulance service.
But it also decided to block the city from starting a municipal ambulance service for two years.

The unusual twist is the result of a petition forcing the council either to voluntarily opt out of the ambulance system or let voters decide in April.

“I do think there’s room to do both here, and I don’t think it’s contradictory,” said council member Doug Farmer, who designed the compromise.

The majority of council members weren’t comfortable with the petition’s either/or proposition and instead elected to do both. Farmer’s arrangement saved some from having to vote against the ban — even though they support it — in order to move the referendum forward.

If the Common Council on Thursday reaffirms the committee’s vote, the ballot item will read: “Be it resolved that the city of La Crosse shall not enter into, nor participate in the formation of, the business or operation of ambulance services.”

While the council voted 12-3 in favor of the self-prohibition, they had varying motives; genuine opposition, ambulance proponents voting against a city-run service out of frustration, and those who just want the issue settled.

“The reason this whole thing came about is because we can save some lives. And that’s been lost,” said council member George Italiano, who favors the municipal service but voted for the ban.

Local political watchdog Steve Gores disagrees with Italiano on what type of service is in the best interest of the city, but he, too, pressed for discussion on the virtue of the ambulance proposal.

It hasn’t been a question of whether the city should or should not offer paramedic services for some time, with the debate on merits swiftly replaced by one of process and how exactly the ambulance proposal would be disposed of.

“This council has played with the issue. It has never discussed this issue. My hope there is that now that it’s before you, you’ll stand on your hind legs and you’ll take a stand, and the games will cease,” Farmer told his colleagues.

Council member Audrey Kader said the two-year self-prohibition will give the council ample time to continue learning about the ambulance proposition, and the referendum will give them direction when that moratorium expires.

“We will need two years to take a step back,” she said. “And hopefully we’ll have learned something along the way in relation to this.”

Tuesday wasn’t the first time an advisory referendum was raised. Council member Bruce Ranis in August called for a public vote, but the council voted it down after the mayor dropped his plans for a city-operated service.
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Myturn wrote on Jan 8, 2009 3:48 PM:

" taxedout- Obtaining information from the WRS is impossible. Yet alone attempting to receive clear concise information. Just like the WI State Politicians who are rumored to receive near $1700 per month retirement, after one mere term. Why? Because they have made is a secret legislatively!
Try it, go start to attempt to extract any info. It is worse than rotary hell on the phone. WI is the largest employer in the State, and we are paying for it. Police, Judges, and Fireman receive 19.4% contribution for 'us'. They also retire near what they made 'while working' and soon after make more. "

Myturn wrote on Jan 8, 2009 11:32 AM:

" “We must look for ways to use the advantages of our community based fire service to deliver care that expands our members’ skills, improves the delivery of pre-hospital care, secures our jobs and justifies higher wages and better benefits.” He concluded with “This is an important week for our future. I know you’ll be working hard. I know you’ll be open to new horizons in our profession. Together we will protect, expand and improve our members’ future and livelihoods.” "

Myturn wrote on Jan 8, 2009 11:26 AM:

" veteranLXffEMT-
An anonymous, omniscient viewpoint with no verifiable/documented history scattered with scare tactics. Step forward big guy.
Anybody can post your crap! "

taxedout wrote on Jan 8, 2009 11:04 AM:

" The La Crosse Fire Department is a bloated mess. I think we deserve a break down on what the retirees are costing, the number of fires they respond to each year and the salaries paid out for what I consider part-time jobs. The arrogance of that group is astounding. Rather than giving them more to do, the city should clean house. They should be cutting back on staff, closing a fire station, having their meal catered in from one of the high schools and moving the retirement age into the same range as the rest of the world. EMT's? Ha! Con artists is more like it! "

Myturn wrote on Jan 8, 2009 10:33 AM:

" Gertie- Our side has procurred the services of a CPA. Who has conversed/shared with both the Chief and Tri-State. When we feel a surge in misinformation we will schedule Informational Meetings once again. Leaving your side once again speechless lloking at their shoes, or outwardly laughed at as before spewing akward/incorrect numbers nobdy believed. Fireman I am told work 10 days per month? Also, presently we already are paying the highest for Fire Protection for similar size n WI. As far as you and Mack, keep it up. You do our side a service with your ill thought out statements. BTW, run the return on SS retirement, and a retirement at 55 backed by a 19.4% (minus a tiny disability premium) matching pay WRS contribution. The WRS is in trouble, get ready to pony up for that cost as well. "

traumacare wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:42 PM:

" Once again I think that anyone stating things about mistakes in the hundreds, should turn to the data showing tri state's clinical performance. Benchmarks such as tripling the national average for cardiac arrest survival and an endotracheal intubation success rate far higher than the national average speak for itself. So without mentioning money, why does LAX need Fire based ambulances? "

medic193 wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:26 PM:

" Veteran La Crosse Firefighter said:

"BUT I witnessed several hundred mistakes where patients could have sued Tri-State for their improper actions or botched skills."

Don't open this can of worms...your guys certainly aren't infallible.

Better. Faster. Cheaper. Right? Your arrogance is appalling. "

gertie wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:30 PM:

" Although you missed my point. Comments are being made without any proof to back them up. These comments are being passed off as fact when they are to intended to cause fear and mislead people. "

veteranLXffEMT wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:26 PM:

" Over my career with the LXFD I responded to at least 7,000+ EMS calls. Tri-State has had some very good medics BUT I witnessed several hundred mistakes where patients could have sued Tri-State for their improper actions or botched skills. Tri-State employee turnover was far higher than the FD with most medics burning out. I cringe seeing ambulances staging in parking lots around the area. Seasoned medics afraid of losing their jobs would agree this practice causes frustration and burn out. Fire-based EMS is what LX needs but first they need to find a Fire Chief capable of starting a quality program. I pray Cleveland is replaced during the next 2 years and the FD gets enough EMT’s trained to Paramedic level and ready to start transport. I also pray the Tribune starts to limit posters to 2 posts per story to stop the crazys. "

gertie wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:26 PM:

" New firefighters/paramedics?? I thought the plan was to train existing personnel. How do they currently replace/purchase new vehicles without raising taxes? I would guess the plan is to do it the same way. "

Logically wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:01 PM:

" gertie how would the city pay for a new ambulance and new firefighters/paramedics if they don't raise taxes? i guess they could make cuts in other areas but they should be doing that already.

you do realize that they need a ambulance to have ambulance service. "

gertie wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:44 PM:

" Joeemt tries to strike fear saying there will be an increase in property taxes while there is no proof of that. Myturn says firemen work two days a week, with 168 hours in a week and three shifts working, that means each shift has to cover 56 hours to fill the entire week, impossible to do in two days. So I ask you who is arguing with fear and misinformation?

Hey joeemt, firefighters also pay income taxes and spend money in the City. Furthermore, if they don't pay into the social security system, that means they also don't drain it. Although for the life of me I can't figure out what social security vs their own retirement has to do with this discussion. To the best of my knowledge that has no bearing on State or local taxes and it certainly has nothing to with medicare/medicaid. "

Logically wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:30 PM:

" mack again you are misinformed.

who said hospital don't pay property taxes.

let me give you a hand on learning something. go to la crosse property tax records and look up gundersen and see how many properties they own and what they pay taxes on.

also many so called "tax exempt" organization pay something called "payment in lieu of taxes" this is just a fancy way for government to tax "tax-exempt" entities.

by the way where did you get less than 5% of hospitals pay any tax? "

Pfrancis wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:12 PM:

" Fellow posters, I, for one am completely confused by this story...can someone explain to me what was accomplished with this vote?

I say vote the whole city counsel out & start over. If you agree, go to the link directly below, to a site you can talk about this further...See you there:

http://lacrossechat.madmooseforum.com "

Myturn wrote on Jan 7, 2009 7:52 PM:

" Mack chomping at the bit to argue obscure semantics, the Mayor telling us he will turn a profit, Italiano informing us this is about saving lives, and now Star-One dredging up unverified war stories?
Is this what they have sunk to?

They have nothing else to argue with but fear and misinformation!!!! "

Mack wrote on Jan 7, 2009 7:42 PM:

" Logically: Why does Gundersen Lutheran pay 2M in property taxes when less than 5% of hospitals pay any at all? The logic behind hospitals not paying as I understand it is that they serve patients who cannot afford to pay. Is Gundersen not doing this like other hospitals or what? "

STAR-ONE wrote on Jan 7, 2009 7:06 PM:

" I do not live in the city of La Crosse but we do have to use the Gundersen Clinc and hospital. We are very happy with their services, however, when my husband had a lawn mower accident, after the ambulance left my house, I went back inside and made sure all appliances were turned off and made several phone calls. Then I left here and did not speed at any time and I beat the ambulance to the ER approximately 10 minutes before they did. Can anyone explain that? "

nobsl wrote on Jan 7, 2009 7:06 PM:

" well if anything good has come of this, is that in the past few years the citizens of LaX have been getting better and better response times due to the potential of competion, and each party trying to be better and faster to prove eachother wrong. "

La Crosse Taxpayer wrote on Jan 7, 2009 6:27 PM:

" Another example of our fine leadership in lacrosse is a sidewalk at 5th and Jay streets that has not been passable since the first snowfall, snow is piled on the sidewalk from the street and its 4-5 feet deep, go look for yourself,! I have called the engineering dept, the inspection dept, public works, and the mayor’s office and get the same excuse “were very busy, but we’ll but it on the list” this address has been “ON THE LIST” since the first snowfall and nothing done about it! We really want to call 911 to be put “ON A LIST” so when they have time, help will arrive! These bozos at city hall wonder why no one wants a city run ambulance service YA DON’T or CANT HANDLE WHAT YOU SHOULD DO your nuts ifyou think I’ll trust my lifeto you!!! "

La Crosse Taxpayer wrote on Jan 7, 2009 6:09 PM:

" You know if lacrosse government gets involved it will get messed up and cost the tax payers big dollars! they'll have to form committees to study the best route to take before an ambulance would be dispatched, (that would take days or weeks) so be sure to call well in advance before needing an ambulance, and hire 20 or 30 people to report to king mark on how things were going with the service!! Let things alone, this city has plenty to screw up and waste taxpayer’s money on now without adding ambulance service!!! This city can’t even get the streets plowed when it snows, why would we want to trust our lives to the MORONs at city hall!! The taxpayers don’t want this!!, If you don’t want to comply with the wishes of the taxpayers
GET OUT OF OFFICE!!!! "

joeemt wrote on Jan 7, 2009 5:17 PM:

" mack, add to the mix that FD does not pay into the social security system. they have their own retirement. any more questions?? "

joeemt wrote on Jan 7, 2009 5:15 PM:

" mack, the landlord also pays property tax which the FD does not. get it straight sonny "

joeemt wrote on Jan 7, 2009 5:12 PM:

" Mack, They still pay rent, the landlord pays taxes on the income. they pay water and sewer fees. The employees pay taxes, the employees spend money in La Crosse. With the FD. there will be a tax increase on property, and than pay again if they need a ride. Sounds like directly paying twice. By the way,the FD is a non profit organization also. Using your idea, you will be charger 3 times. "

MOron wrote on Jan 7, 2009 4:23 PM:

" I find the concept of the City of LaCrosse providing ambulance service to LaCrosse to be very interesting. I remember when the City of LaCrosse provided the service and were very eager to give it up many years ago. Tri-State came in and has provided the service at high levels of patient care. Now LaCrosse wants to destroy that service(TriState and their expanded area of service outside of LaCrosse.

The "Farmer" concept of a "yes" vote means "yes" and a "no" vote means "yes" as well. It's a two faced referedum and it's a win-win for him. Have it now or simply wait two years and have it then. These politicians should be recalled and get people in that want what's best for the people of LaCrosse. "

kamikazefaase wrote on Jan 7, 2009 4:20 PM:

" I'm glad that information is getting out there concerning this ambulance issue. The best compromise would have been that the city will not enter into an ambulance service unless there is no existing service for its residents. All this baloney from Farmer and Sweeney exists because no one opposes them for their seats. While I wished I could oppose Sweeney, my sweetie doesn't want me to. There are those who wish I would, even on the city council because I want our city to do a better job performing the services its suppose to do. "

Logically wrote on Jan 7, 2009 3:48 PM:

" mack you are really uninformed. i guess that is why i don't accept any of your other arguments because you prove time and time again that you don't know what you are talking about.

Gundersen Lutheran is the largest tax paying entity in La Crosse.

they paid $2.3 million in 2007. "

Mack wrote on Jan 7, 2009 3:20 PM:

" joeemt: Non-profits pay NO PROPERTY TAX IN LA CROSSE or income tax anywhere. That means the taxpayers of La Crosse (and everywhere else)make up the difference. All non-profits get a free ride in this regard and with so many non-profits residing in La Crosse it is a substantial cost to the taxpayer. "

down2512 wrote on Jan 7, 2009 3:12 PM:

" DJ: and packer backer, you are SPOT ON! all i can add once again is the liability issue that seems to go unnoticed here. the city can hardly run existing business, ie transit. i don't want anybody i pissed off no matter how unintended to assess or decide what i may need or not in a medical emergency. from past experience with some transit and other city employees it's a point worth making! "

joeemt wrote on Jan 7, 2009 1:22 PM:

" Mack,
Tristate gets 0 tax money from the city or county. Please check your facts prior to saying writing misinfomation "

medic193 wrote on Jan 7, 2009 1:13 PM:

" I think some clarification of the petition for direct legislation is in order here. As far as I recall, the media hasn't really done a good job describing what WI's direct legislation law calls for. Wisconsin 9.20 says that a valid petition brings forth the resolution on that petition for the legislative body (city council) to either ADOPT OR SEND TO REFERENDUM. This was clearly printed at the top of every form on which signatures were obtained. The city chose to adopt the resolution, thereby making it a part of city ordinances for a period of two years. If they wish to make changes to the ordinance within the next two years they MUST put it to vote by the people. City negotiators said they wouldn't even CONSIDER any enhancements until THEY GOT AN AMBULANCE. It's time to start talking about REAL ENHANCEMENTS TO THE REGIONAL SYSTEM. "

Mack wrote on Jan 7, 2009 12:42 PM:

" Myturn blogs read like an Ann Coulter interview. Too much noise! "

terbo wrote on Jan 7, 2009 12:37 PM:

" myturn...you should get a job with the tribune...all the time you spend on this site. "

Myturn wrote on Jan 7, 2009 12:31 PM:

" Last night as Sweeney continued with his onsided version of the need for a City 'Ambulance Business' he called up the Chief to lead him? The Chief did and at length, just like when they gang tackled in large numbers previous City Meetings until 1:30 AM. Councilman Richmond once again had the courage to stand up, protest and ask, Why don't we give someone from Tri-state a chance to counter? Why? Because the same reason when Mr. Eastman spoke his 'three minutes' in behalf of Tri-State and nobody had any questions for him. His case and points are rock solid, that's why! Chairman Becker is a good man, honest, a City asset, and nobody owns him. Although he needs to use his Gavel when appropriate as Fred Kursch instructed him at City seminar, and last night it was the 'Tom Sweeney Show'. "

Myturn wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:28 AM:

" nobsl- Great point! Gores who only changed his blog handle 'Stevegorescrg' yesterday, is backing Lenard. Lenard has been a 'mirror' vote for Mark, up until she decided to run for Mayor. Lenard and Gores would like to hang this on Mark's neck up until the election for self serving purposes. Money is money, even $2500 dollars. Some working fool might work a year to contribute that to the City. Remember, Lenard comes with a City Administrator. If we get one does that mean we get a City 'raffle' as well for infrastructure? "

Myturn wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:21 AM:

" quay- You need to attend more meetings, good for you. As I have said before Farmer has been there for 24 years. Far too long! He historically places his boot up on the figurative split rail, w/straw in his mouth, and drawls on how he is stuck on the fence on this one. In fact he is a savvy insider with his 'pit bull' Kader sitting at his side. Last night you witnessed a masterful Politician confuse the ignorant, and most of all conduct damage control for his allies. PS-Again more than a handful need to learn how to use a microphone. It is and should not be a conversation between themselves! "

nobsl wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:15 AM:

" If the city says no, why spend the money to put it on a ballot,it seems like needless spending to me. why is CRG not screeming about this? if they are truley for responsible govt "

Myturn wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:08 AM:

" There is no question that Councilman Sweeney was chosen to be point man. He was on WIZM Lacrosse PM last night. He spiel was full of holes, misinformation, and awkwardly missing other vital information. Although most importantly this is not about 'ONE' City Ambulance!!!!! To train, certify, and keep up to speed paramedics to ride with fire crews. "

quay wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:02 AM:

" I'm new to going to council meetings. I went to this one. What I found interesting is that this Farmer guy took this debate over. The Mayor said nothing. But Farmer's spontaneous idea didn't pass my smell test. And the city attorney seems to be in on the ruse. When Farmer brought this idea up, the attorney paused and sighed, thinking very hard, then came up with this advisory angle that seems to me to be worked out before hand with the Mayors blessing. "

traumacare wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:38 AM:

" The service currently provided to La Crosse residents is undeniably some of the best in the midwest and arguably the nation. Clinically, Tri State performs at the pinnacle of EMS. Financially I am unsure how any tax dollars have trickled their way as stated by others. Also, I must say that when the only arguments posted are those regarding the money involved in this issue, I am deeply troubled. When one focuses on money and bypasses patients, patients are left in the dust. Patients are the focus of EMS, which seems to be lost on some (mayor, fire chief, Mack) etc. "

packer backer wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:36 AM:

" La Crosse City Hall, the mini-Chicago. This is so dripping with political B.S.. The politicians in the La Crosse City Council, mainly the egomaniac Mayor, need to go. The citizens of La Crosse go out and get a legal petition, signed sealed and delivered. The city council shaking in their little booties read between the lines and realize that oopsie maybe we should not go forward with this. Now they want it on an advisory petition. Listen up there city hall, this won't go away. Bring it up in two years, or ten, the people are HAPPY with Tri-State. Your "advisory" petition in April will show that. Is this still America where the "people" have a say so? La Crosse and Chicago, they have more in common then one would fear. "

dumas wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:35 AM:

" Mack,
Do you actually believe this crap you're spewing? Of all the misinformed people you must be the queen. King Mark holds the top honor. How does it feel to be his biyatch? "

Mack wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:32 AM:

" Myturn: I am not a fireman, but then you do like to shoot off your mouth about things you do not understand. "

Senior Advocate wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:51 AM:

" The Key point is "changed to Advisory"! Nothing will change here. How many are many are up for term renewal? how many seats are being challenged? You need a massive recall or nothing will change. Guaranteed! Until then all the whining in the world will not help. "

Myturn wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:28 AM:

" Mack (Fireman?)- I want you to know that in the next two years there are those of us who are prepared and commited to counter misinformation like yours actively. The day of one sided controled forums are over. I am sorry to say, but 'our sides' argument will only be enhanced by the impending financial woes, and recession. But you keep hanging on to the City turning a profit. Because it is largely laughed at, as Lacrosse Taxpayers and Elderly are being taxed to death. Or have you forgotten about the ranking of Lacrosse for Tax and Fire Service costs in our State? "

Myturn wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:16 AM:

" JBK- Could not agree with you more. Italiano is one of the sheep. He also is a a retired City worker, and I do not think he has a clue about being 'frugal'. He should be replaced. What really concerns me most is that Italiano completely ignores data that infusions like these proposed, lower skills of all paramedics. Instead hollering never heard before concerns of response times! To insure Fireman expansion of job duties, and retention of jobs/benefits. Fireman who work 2 days, garner 19.4% matching payroll retirement contribution, retirement at 55, and receive post retirement health coverage while too many of us do not have proper coverage while paying for their's. As firecalls drop coast to coast. While standing under a canopy/ruse of 'danger'. Ignoring farmers, steel workers, roofers, and other professions exceed their workplace deaths/injury rate. "

Mack wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:01 AM:

" Let’s bring everything out in the open.
The fact that Tri-State is non-profit and as such already supported by the taxpayers of La Crosse.
Tri-State’s revenue, costs, cost to the users of their service need to be examined to see if La Crosse can indeed offer as good a service at a better choice with some existing and some new resources.
Taxes in La Crosse are very high and either way we are paying for this ambulance service. "

Myturn wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:58 AM:

" "Farmer’s arrangement saved some from having to vote against the ban"? Another term for this move is 'damage control'. "...and the games will cease"? As some sought to draw this out to hang around the Mayors neck up until election. Do not fret, this direction by Mark was so flawed it will have no choice but adhere itself up to his re-election, and the Mayor knows it! Italiano once again shamefully pulled the response time siren. When in fact infusion like this clearly has shown in other areas it lowers skills of all paramedics involved. Although most importantly, this is not about infusion of 'one' Ambulance. That is the shoddy slight of hand present. "

JBK wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:47 AM:

" Mr. Italiano: Exactly how many lives have been lost in the La Crosse area because there is no municipal ambulance service?

I am guessing none, since nobody has ever stepped forward to disparage TriState's service. This is just a poor attempt to lay a guilt-trip on the petition signers.

Perhaps District 3 voters would be better represented by Mr. Italiano's upcoming opponent Chris Olson. Perhaps Mr. Olson will listen to their views, instead of the disregard and mocking tone that Mr. Italiano is currently providing. "

davidinlse wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:44 AM:

" Why didn't the tribune publish who proposed this nonsense, and list how the people voted? It would help to actually provide some information when they print this kind of story. "

DJ: wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:22 AM:

" ...just what is it that those ingorant arrogant asses in city hall don't understand?
Seems to me that they must be either stupid or devious to completely miss the role they were elected to fill. "

wakeup wrote on Jan 7, 2009 7:58 AM:

" I don't think they can do this. I think, because the signatures were on the petition, that the referendum has to be as submitted and has to be binding. LaX Tribune paid staff - please do some research. "


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