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I chaired the Distinguished Lectures in the Life Sciences committee that brought Brian Deer to the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse earlier this month.

The purpose of this series is to bring in a scientist who has made exceptional contributions to the life sciences. For the first time, we invited an award—winning journalist rather than a scientist.

We did this because Deer’s investigations reversed an alarming trend of decreased vaccination of children in the United States and worldwide. Deer’s exposure of fraud also provides a clear example of the consequences of fraudulent science and the challenges faced by a public increasingly inundated with alarmist studies.

It’s unfortunate that the Tribune chose to promote this as a “debate” in its Sept. 30 article, which led to the misconception that the university was hosting a debate between two opposing views.

This series does not organize debates. We invite distinguished scientists (or in this case a journalist) whose findings have not only had a significant impact on science and society but also whose work is widely accepted by the scientific community.

This year we invited a journalist who exposed a grievous scientific fraud by a former British doctor. The former doctor, who was found guilty of this fraud by two prestigious medical journals and the British General Medical Council, invited himself and complained that he was not invited to debate Deer.

There are many topics worthy of debates. Whether a vaccine is the cause of autism is not among them.

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Digital news editor

Digital news editor

(615) comments

lilady

You got that wrong Twyla.

VanDerHorst-Larson, who is part of Team Wakefield (his operative in Minnesota), wrote a scurrilous "open letter" to University officials, whining about the "non-debate".

Mr. Deer then rebutted, point-by-point ,each and every one of VanDerHorst-Larson's "complaints" about the "non-debate".

Today's Age of Autism is just a rebuttal to Mr. Deer's rebuttal...of her scurrilous "open letter".

Just more bird droppings from AoA's political party...The Canary Party. Ridiculous and pathetic.

THERE.IS.NO.DEBATE.PERIOD,Twyla.

Twyla

Well, readers (if any) can read both sides and decide for themselves who is more credible.

Twyla

I previously posted a link to Jennifer VanDerHorst Larson's excellent letter to Brian Deer on the Canary Party site, but I'm not sure that link is working. Today her letter appears at Age of Autism:

Canary Party Responds To Brian Deer's Rebuttal
http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/10/canary-party-responds-to-brian-deer-rebuttal.html

Jennifer takes the time to respond to many of Brian Deer's statements in detail. In addition, there is embedded in this article a video of Dr. Wakefield describing how Brian Deer misrepresented pathology.

Dyson

Twyla,
Seeing as how you say you are not "anti-vaccine", when are you going to tell us which vaccines you feel it is appropriate for children to get?
Your constant avoidance of this particular question leads readers to conclude (probably quite correctly) that you are unable or unwilling to answer, because answering truthfully ("All of them!") would clearly mark you out as a die-hard antivaccinationist.

Twyla

Actually, I haven't avoided this question. I have answered it several times before.

I am not a health care practitioner. I can't recommend to anyone which shots they should get. It is not simple to weigh the risks and benefits of vaccines and diseases. I have no idea who would sail through the routine vaccine schedule unharmed and who would suffer an adverse reaction. I have no idea who would easily fight off routine childhood diseases and who would suffer serious complications.

I am not anti-vaccine. I never tell people not to vaccinate. I believe that vaccines are an important tool in the war against disease. In the face of a serious prevalent communicable disease some risk from a vaccine is acceptable.

I cannot say which vaccine is a "good" vaccine. Some tolerate the MMR without a problem, some do not. Some tolerate the MMR ok by itself but not in combination with several other vaccines.

People who work to understand and prevent auto accidents are not "anti-car".

Twyla

My only recommendation is that people do their own research, make careful decisions, and observe their children.

I strongly believe in the right to make informed medical choices. And it is important for parents and doctors to take into account the medical history of the child and the child's family.

Dyson

Choices made with misinformation are not "informed" choices.

Dyson

Twyla, when I ask what vaccines you would accept for your child, and you failed to answer, you reply above "Actually, I haven't avoided this question. I have answered it several times before"

But then you also say "Dyson, you are correct. I failed to answer your question."

Perhaps you could make up your mind?

Twyla

Dyson, I changed my mind. Initially I said that I had answered the question - but really although I responded I did not answer it. I responded by saying that I cannot advise anyone on which shots to get. So that is a clear and direct response, but it doesn't really answer your question, especially the expanded version of your question which you subsequently posted.

Dyson

OK, forget other people.
Would YOU want your own child to have meningo vaccine?

Twyla

If I were an "antivaccionationist" I would say so. There are people who believe that all vaccines are harmful and ineffective. That is not what I believe. In the course of my life I have seen certain diseases disappear when vaccines were implemented, and I don't believe that is a coincidence. I also don't believe that it is a coincidence that certain serious disorders of the immune and nervous systems have increased at the same time as the number of vaccines have increased. And I don't think it is a coincidence that so many parents have witnessed similar post-vaccine changes in their children. Our vaccine program cannot be based on blanket denial of the negatives. We must understand these unintended consequences better, for the sake of prevention and treatment.

I find it very odd that people who raise concerns about vaccines are constantly accused of being "anti-vaccine" as if this is a secret vice with a hidden motive such as illicit pleasure or illegal financial gain.

Dyson

Twyla, You have failed to answer the question.
Continual evasion is a sure sign that you don't wish to commit yourself on the issue.
Perhaps we can take it one vaccine at a time?

Assuming there are no contraindications, and that a pediatrician has examined a child and checked the clinical history, if he then recommended the following vaccines, would you object to them?
1. Rota virus?
2. Diphtheria?
3. Whooping cough?
4. Meningococcal disease?
5. Polio?
6. Measles?
7. Rubella?
8. Chickenpox?
9. Mumps?
10. Tetanus?

All of these vaccines have been extensively studies for efficacy and have very favorable risk-benefit profiles. Appealing to laypersons to go do their own "research" is disingenuous, since people will turn to the web and find antivax propaganda sites pumping out misinformation.

Twyla

Dyson, you are correct. I failed to answer your question. But it is not evasion. It is refusal. It is not my role to advise anyone on what vaccines they should or should not receive. All I am doing is crying out for help and research on the causes of autism and other vaccine-related conditions, and help for the vaccine injured. Dr. Wakefield and his associates were providing treatment and doing research; for that they were unjustly pilloried.

Dyson

Refusal....evasion.....Same difference. You fail to answer because it would expose your duplicity and reveal your antivaccination hardcore.

Twyla

Don't be ridiculous, Dyson. No duplicity. No hidden motivations.

Dyson

Well I welcome the news that John Richard Smith, who admits that he is not an "ASD researcher", will be calling time on his contributions here. It is telling that he thinks he is somehow speaking to an audience of thousands, yet we know that for the last week or so there have been only 3 or 4 people reading and posting comments.

The topic was the decision to invite Brian Deer to UW-L to talk about MMR and Andrew Wakefield. John (not an "ASDresearcher") Smith has taken the opportunity to spam the discussions with hundreds of self indulgent. pompous and narcissistic posts on topics unrelated to the main points of the discussion.

That the La Crosse Tribune has extended him the luxury of preening his ego "in public" for so long has been very generous of them. At least it has thrown a ray of sterilizing sunshine into the hidden corners of the antivaccine mindset, and helped unearth the unsavory creatures which inhabit the nether world of internet antivaccine propaganda and their MOs.

lilady

It also provided us Dyson, with the opportunity to put the record straight, about Mr. Deer's excellent journalism, Mr. Deer's invitation to the University and the attempts by Wakefield and his agents to turn Mr. Deer's seminars into a three ring circus.

I'm glad we had the opportunity to explore the machinations of the editors of Age of Autism to skew the University seminars for publicity for the disgraced former doctor. Let's now forget how the Dachel bot Spammed the comments and the ridiculous "press conference in a gun shed". Pathetic.

Twyla

Dyson, ASDR never said there was an audience of thousands. And his comments were totally on topic - relating to immune system issues and autism, and the judge's ruling on Dr. John Walker-Smith's case, which directly related to most of the findings against Dr. Wakefield, since both convictions related to the same children, the same treatments. His comments were not "spam" and were not "self indulgent. pompous and narcissistic". You cannot even address the issues he has raised, and so simply resort to silly insults.

As far as "the unsavory creatures which inhabit the nether world of internet anti vaccine propaganda", anyone reading through these comments will see:
- conscientious thoughtful people with vaccine concerns who post research and other information in an effort to better understand autism and other vaccine-induced conditions, and
- mean-spirited vaccine defenders who respond to information with empty declarations that "science has spoken" and childish slurs and insults.

Dyson

Reality check time Twyla - this discussion was about the fact that Deer was invited to UW-L, but that Wakefield was not.

Please point out where the subject of Walker Smith, or the possible contribution of immune function is related to autism is even mentioned.

We know from past experience that any subject on any public internet forum that mentions the red flag words "vaccine" or alternatively "autism"will get flooded with antivax spammers trying to claim vaccines cause autism, or that Wakefield is a saint. There are not many of you, but you operate in well drilled packs, with Age of Autism Media contributor Anne Dachel sending out her attack dogs to spam propaganda online, trying to create the impression that there is some form of significant number of people trying to challenge the scientific consensus and create a "manufactroversy" out of thin air. It won't work.

Twyla

If this were only a discussion about "the fact that Deer was invited to UW-L, but that Wakefield was not" we would be in total agreement. I agree, the UW-L invited Deer but not Wakefield. Yay! We agree!

But you have both said much more than that, such that Wakefield was a fraud etc. and that vaccines don't cause autism. Those points beg for rebuttal as they are quite simply not true.

I am not part of a "well-drilled pack". I write as an individual, of my own accord, when and how I wish to. Anne Dachel does not send out attack dogs. She states her opinions and links to facts and studies. There are indeed a lots of people challenging the notion that vaccines don't cause autism, e.g. thousands who filed claims via the Autism Omnibus proceedings, thousands of members of multiple autism associations, and many more who do not even get involved but who witnessed how vaccines affected their children.

The Tribune journalists called this a debate before any of us posted comments.

Dyson

Twyla, if I have commented about Wakefield it was in rebuttal of the [untrue] glowing comments made about him and his studies. Rebuttal of false accusations or statements is quite appropriate, but these always originate on the antivaccine side, remember?
We stick to the straightforward science, and follow where it takes us.

I would remind you that although the Autism Omnibus proceedings had thousands of claimants, but when the claims of the strongest 3 cases was put to the test, all of them were roundly rejected and the conclusion was that in no cases was autism caused by vaccines.

Did you forget that, or do you really think that "claims" count as evidence and proof, even when they are rejected?

Dyson

Twyla, I'd also remind you that the Tribune called this a "debate" only after antivaccine campaigners like yourself and your Age of Autism/Canary party cronies publicized that Wakefield was coming to La Crosse to challenge Brian Deer, giving the impression the two of them were somehow going to be involved in a debate.

I forgive the reporter for becoming confused by your propaganda.
But then that was the express intent, no?

Twyla

Dyson, I brought up the thousands of Autism Omnibus families in your response to your statement that bloggers are "trying to create the impression that there is some form of significant number of people trying to challenge the scientific consensus and create a 'manufactroversy' out of thin air." There is genuinely a controversy. Regardless of whether our vaccine court is willing to pay out thousands of claims of vaccine-induced autism, thousands of claims have been filed by parents who saw their children adversely affected by vaccines, resulting in autism.

And no wonder the court is reluctant to admit a link. Hannah Poling is going to cost the vaccine fund hundreds of thousands of dollars. Imagine how much it would cost to pay out thousands such claims. Her father is a neurologist and her mother is both nurse and attorney, and they had the medical evidence which made the govt concede her case without even going to trial. They did not want her case to be a test case.

Dyson

Twyla, the point that the courts found that none of the 3 test cases (representing the class action suit of over a thousand cases) had their autism caused by vaccines evidently went way over your head.

As did the fact that Hanah Poling did not have autism, but developed neurological damage after her underlying unrecognized mitochondrial disorder worsened following vaccines - a very exceptional case, quite unrepresentative of the "thousands" you say it did. Also, this problem is something that is more likely to have happened following infections themselves (which is why Mitochondrial disorder specialists advise full compliance with the vax schedule for anyone affected by the disorder)

Twyla

Hannah Poling does have autism. She was diagnosed by qualified professionals.

Mitochondrial experts recommend vaccinating with great caution. Hannah was vaccinated against 9 diseases at one office visit. An unfortunate example of the excesses of our vaccine program.

Mitochondrial disorders are not actually rare among people with autism. Some estimate that about 20% of people with autism have mitochondrial disorders.

Dyson

Hannah Poling does not have autism, but mitochondrial disorder with some autistic-type behaviors.

If you think that experts have diagnosed autism, perhaps you can point to the citations (and don't use her own father who put in a vaccine damage claim for autism as one of them please).

Twyla

Her "own father" knows much better than you, Dyson.

From the vaccine court's ruling:

Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, a pediatric neurologist, evaluated CHILD at the Kennedy Krieger Children's Hospital Neurology Clinic ("Krieger Institute"), on February 8, 2001. Pet. Ex. 25 at 1.
Dr. Zimmerman reported that after CHILD's immunizations of July 19, 2000, an "encephalopathy progressed to persistent loss of previously acquired language, eye contact, and relatedness." Id.
He noted a disruption in CHILD's sleep patterns, persistent screaming and arching, the development of pica to foreign objects, and loose stools. Id.
Dr. Zimmerman observed that CHILD watched the fluorescent lights repeatedly during the examination and would not make eye contact. Id.
He diagnosed CHILD with "regressive encephalopathy with features consistent with an autistic spectrum disorder, following normal development." Id. At 2.
http://www.autismpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=Etiology_of_Autism/Vaccine_Damage/CHILD_v._HHS

Dyson

Her own father was trying to claim she had autism from vaccines at the same time he was submitting a claim for vaccine damage. You cannot get more conflicted or devious than that. The editors of the journal he published the case in (where he failed to mention that the subject was his daughter or that he was claiming in vaccine court) heavily criticized him and Zimmerman (Poling's co-author).

It was accepted that she had some neurological damage, with features that were also consistent with an autistic spectrum disorder. ASD is a behavioral syndrome, but how it arises is crucial to the diagnosis. You don't call a child with traumatic brain damage who as part of his neurological damage has some autistic traits a case of "ASD", you call him a case of traumatic brain damage, with some features that are similar to those in autism.

Dyson

This explains the confusion about Hannah's diagnostic categorization:
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/03/01/vaccines-autism-and-the-concession/

Twyla

re: "ASD is a behavioral syndrome, but how it arises is crucial to the diagnosis."
That is totally wrong, Dyson. Etiology/causation is not part of the definition of autism. Autism is defined by behaviors: impairments in communication and social interaction, and perseverative behaviors.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html

Hannah Poling meets the diagnostic criteria for autism.

re: "Her own father was trying to claim she had autism from vaccines at the same time he was submitting a claim for vaccine damage. You cannot get more conflicted or devious than that."
You're being ridiculous again, Dyson. He claimed vaccine damage resulting in autism. This is what thousands of parents have witnessed in their children. Nothing conflicted or devious about that.

Here is an interview of Dr. John Poling with Dr. Sanjay Gupta on CNN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxfgqsZ8BV0

Dyson

Perfectly normal child is in a motor vehicle accident at age 3 yrs.
Suffers traumatic brain damage.
After recovery, is left with some autistic like behaviors as a result of the brain damage.

Twyla, according to you (" Etiology/causation is not part of the definition of autism. Autism is defined by behaviors"), this child is autistic. Do I read you correctly?

PS You are quite wrong, obviously - autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder, and the etiology/causation of the "behaviors" is quite relevant..

lilady

Wrong, Twyla:

(Not An) ASD Researcher a.k.a. John Richard Smith from the Ho-Po a.k.a. Blackheart from science blogs, posts his walls of words that are totally off-topic.

The three blogs written by a LaCrosse Tribune reporter stated that there is an ongoing "debate"...based on the concerted efforts of your friends from AoA...to influence his reporting.

You, your pals from AoA and (Not An) ASD Researcher tried unsuccessfully, to smear Mr. Deer, to turn Mr. Deer's seminars at U.Wisconsin-LaCrosse into a Wakefield "debate". You were foiled in your attempts. Time to go back to your handlers at AoA, now Twyla.

lilady

Twyla claims...

"I am not part of a "well-drilled pack". I write as an individual, of my own accord, when and how I wish to. Anne Dachel does not send out attack dogs. She states her opinions and links to facts and studies....."

That's not true and you know it, Twyla.

I linked to the first scurrilous article written by Ed Arranga that alerted you and your pals at AoA to Mr. Deer's seminars at LaCrosse. That article appeared on AoA on
September 24th. Other scurrilous articles that libeled Mr. Deer appeared subsequently on AoA, alerting you and your pals to the machinations of Wakefield and his agents at the Canary Party to turn Mr. Deer's seminars into "a debate". Do you want me to provide links to those defamatory articles? Ann Dachel a,k.a. the Dachel bot has media alerts every day, so that you and your pals can carpet bomb each and every blog that mentions autism, vaccines and/or your hero St. Andy.

THERE.IS.NO.DEBATE.PERIOD, Twyla.

Time to give it up now, Twyla.

Twyla

Communication is not the same as being "attack dogs" who are part of a "well drilled pack". If I see something I want to comment on I do, if not I don't, and if I comment whatever I say is my own choice. You can't simply dismiss all critical vaccine commentary as some kind of cult. We think for ourselves and have valid concerns for good reasons.

Twyla

I have news for you, lilady. There is a debate. In fact, you and I are debating right now.

Dyson

QED, Lilady.
Twyla evidently thinks arguing on the internet counts as "debate".

ASD Researcher

I'd imagine that it is an opportune time to finish my contributions to this issue. Particularly now that some are beginning to question the La Crosse Tribune and its staff ...

A thank you to the fine hospitality of La Crosse in allowing an alternative view of what this issue brings and means.

Twyla

Thank you, ASD Researcher, for all the information you shared.

Dyson

"Information", but none of it on topic, and none of it to do with vaccines causing autism.

Dyson

Even trolls have to give up sometime I guess...

ASD Researcher

If the La Crosse editorial staff or its journalists wish to do more in depth analysis of this issue, particularly the medical science then it could do no better than to contact Department of Medical Microbiology and Immunology The M.I.N.D. Institute UC Davis

Their recent research revealed an interesting dynamic and intersection of key issues that were first flagged in the Lancet paper.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23063420

Elevated frequencies of myeloid dendritic cells were positively associated with abnormal right and left amygdala enlargement

Severity of gastrointestinal symptoms and increased repetitive behaviors.

The frequencies of plasmacytoid dendritic cells were also associated with amygdala volumes as well as developmental regression in children with ASD. Dendritic cells play key roles in modulating immune responses and differences in frequencies or functions of these cells may result in immune dysfunction in children with ASD.

ASD Researcher

So that's ...

Abnormal brain size and neurology

Gastrointestinal issue

Autism behaviors

.... and finally regression of language and skills.

Parents saw something change and the science is backing it up.

lilady

Here's the September 24, 2012 blog from Age of Autism alerting their readership to Mr. Deer's invitation issued by Mr. Winfrey's committee, to conduct seminars at U. Wisonsin-LaCrosse.

It is a scurrilous blog...which again smears the good name of Brian Deer, written by Ed Arranga who is Wakefield's good buddy. Mr. Arranga is the chairman of the Andrew Wakefield Justice Fund which in part, financially supports Andrew Wakefield's "activities" through direct monetary "contributions" and arranging for fund-raisers that go directly to Andrew Wakefield:

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/09/guess-whos-coming-to-america-brian-deer-to-speak-in-wisconsin-wakefield-press-conference-first.html

Inquiring minds want to know how the LaCrosse journalist Mr. Anderson researched information on Wakefield...and who provided the "background information" for those three prior articles that framed Mr. Deer's seminars as some sort of "debate".

It's nice that comments are limited now..to eliminate SPAM.

Twyla

Thanks for linking to that excellent article by Ed Arranga, lilady.

Dyson

As though you hadn't already read it Twyla.

How are your answers coming along to which vaccines you'd give a child?

ASD Researcher

How's that documentation coming along ? ...and a sincere attempt at answering those questions surrounding Somali measles outbreaks ?

Twyla

Of course I had read it, Dyson. But I was thanking her for sharing it so that others could read it too who might have missed it before.

lilady

She's still not replying to your questions Dyson.

I want to know which vaccine(s) caused her child's autism.

lilady

The subject of vaccines causing autism has been settled, years ago.

Instead of providing financial support to the disgraced former doctor, why don't you all donate money for researching genetic and prenatal causes of autism?:

http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/

Dyson

Yes it's very nice... the high volumes of irrelevant spam from people pretending to be ASD researchers was just unbelievable.

ASD Researcher

I'd imagine that attacking the La Crosse Tribune for a story that has so far revealed a much more complex underbelly than skeptics would like to admit to, should be the cause for applause.

I don't suppose the possibility that skeptics might be wrong on this issue has crossed their minds, I'm certainly happy to be proven in error and the etiology and pathology of autism become scientifically validated. Unfortunately this as with a lot of autism research remains unanswered.

One only has to look at the allegations made against Professor John Walker-Smith in regards to clinical care management and research misconduct. Quashed by the UK High Court to understand that things may not be as they seem.

...and of course the latest medical science being elucidated seems to be problematic in terms of skeptic opinion and narrative surrounding the findings of immune system dysfunction and inflammatory bowel disease and other serious bowel conditions as described by Professor John Walker-Smith.

lilady

Why hasn't the publisher investigating why three prior articles written by their journalist Mr. Anderson, were so biased in favor of Mr. Wakefield?

It would not have been necessary to for Mr. Winfrey to write this "Letter-to-the Editor", save for the fact that reporter Mr. Anderson framed those three prior articles as if there really is a "debate".

Isn't the Publisher of the LaCrosse Tribune ultimately responsible to determine if a reporter has been influenced by the editors of Age of Autism and its political arm The Canary Party? Even before Mr. Deer arrived in LaCrosse, Age of Autism (September 24, 2012), wrote an article about Mr. Deer's upcoming seminars. In a series of articles that appeared after that September 24th article, Age of Autism was urging their readership to come to this alternative "press conference in a gun shed" hosted by Andrew Wakefield.

I want to know from the publisher of the LaCrosse Tribune, how Mr. Anderson researched those three articles.

Twyla

The articles were not biased in favor of Dr. Wakefield. Should the reporter have completely ignored the important and newsworthy fact that Dr. Wakefield came to La Crosse and spoke to a small crowd, along with some mothers who told their children's stories?

Fact is there is a debate. It's here on this thread and in newspapers and online and in homes and doctors' offices and universities and laboratories all over this country and even around the world.

Should the Tribune have pretended that Dr. Wakefield doesn't exist? It would have been pretty silly to cover this story with the headline, "Brian Deer Comes to La Crosse to Talk About Andrew Wakefield, Who Doesn't Actually Exist And Please Ignore That Man In The Park".

ASD Researcher

Of course science moves on ...

Comorbidity of allergic and autoimmune diseases in patients with autism spectrum disorder: A nationwide population-based study

So what does it tell us well ...

1596 ASD children and matched 1:4 with controls.

They found in the ASD children ... significantly higher prevalence of allergic and autoimmune diseases than the control group.

Patients with ASD had increased risks of

asthma OR 1.74

allergic rhinitis OR 1.70

atopic dermatitis OR 1.52

urticaria OR 1.38

type 1 diabetes OR 4.00

and a trend toward increasing comorbidity with Crohn's disease OR = 1.46

Of course this goes hand in hand with the Harvard co-morbidity study found here ...

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033224

There's the difference I suppose ... I believed the observations made by paediatric clinicians.

ASD Researcher

Just a reminder of course of what the Harvard Medical School / Boston Children's Hospital study revealed ...

19.44% of ASD patients had epilepsy as compared to 2.19% in the overall hospital population

2.43% of ASD with schizophrenia vs. 0.24%

0.83% vs. 0.54% Inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) bowel disorders (without IBD)

11.74% vs. 4.5%bowel disorders (without IBD)

12.45% vs. 1.19% CNS/cranial anomalies

0.79% vs. 0.34% ( diabetes mellitus type I (DM1)

0.47% vs 0.05% muscular dystrophy

1.12% vs. 0.14% sleep disorders

Three of the studied comorbidities increased significantly when comparing ages 0–17 vs 18–34

Schizophrenia 1.43% vs. 8.76%

Diabetes Mellitus type I 0.67% vs. 2.08

IBD (0.68% vs. 1.99%)

Twyla

An excellent letter:

OPEN LETTER to the Sponsors of Brian Deer’s Lectures at The University of Wisconsin, La Crosse, October 2012
Written by Jennifer VanDerHorst Larson
Friday, 26 October 2012 09:07

http://canaryparty.net/index.php/the-news/118-open-letter-to-the-sponsors-of-brian-deers-lectures-at-the-university-of-wisconsin-la-crosse-october-2012

Dyson

What was that saying again?
...Empty barrels make most noise.

ASD Researcher

No ... I think it was Shakespeare “There is little choice in a barrel of rotten apples.”

ASD Researcher

So which 'rotten apples ' are we to believe ... ? Is every apple tinged ?

parents
skeptics
media
solicitors
children
doctors
government
public servants
ministers
advocates

Obviously all the narratives can't be 'true' or can they ? Are these mistakes , confusions , misinterpretation , delusions ... or just lack of knowledge of what autism , vaccines , neurology , physiology is and how it interacts with each other.

Is this a medical mystery , a political mystery or does its foundations lie in simple greed or the highest ethics ?

Who is who and what is what ...ask your own questions about all the players on the stage.


Dyson

Rotten apples?
The disgraced former doctor who harmed children, and took $750,000 to conjure up a link between MMR and autism?
Carol Stott, his foul-mouthed partner in crime?
The Age of Autism antivax propagandists, who on a daily basis eschew their cause (helping kids with autism) to focus on attacking vaccines?
The Canary Party, a rag tag bag of delusional individuals desperately searching for meaning in their lives?
People who spam the internet (like yourself) misrepresenting their motives and true nature ("ASD researcher" - we all know not!)?

If one looks at the narratives one finds a clear consistency - those like Wakefield who have money to gain, reputations to lose or those with unshakeable faith in their tarnished heroes will all lie and engage in misrepresentation.

In the end, science wins out, every time, which is why none of the science points to MMR causing autism, and that autism is not caused by vaccines.

ASD Researcher

(In reply to Dyson below)

ummmmm .... obviously I was trying to frame a philosophical element to this controversial issue.

That seems to have gone over your head ....

Dyson

You try many things, John. None of them work out for you.
Some insight would be a good thing to acquire.

Dyson

Let's hear it for some nonsense comment now from someone pretending he does research into ASD... maybe with a nonsense quote?

ASD Researcher

General Medical Council Transcripts - Vaccine Manufacturers Part 2

We also discussed Dr Sullivan’s concern that there was no clinical or research indication for these children undergoing endoscopy. I explained to you that Professor Walker-Smith had been clear in a number of discussions that these children were being seen for clinical reasons, and that he and his colleagues were prescribing endoscopy on clinical grounds only and not on research grounds.

I further explained to you that this matter had been discussed by me with
Professor Zuckerman, the then Dean, as well as with the Medical Director, and had also been discussed in the past with the Divisional General Manager and the Specialty Group Chairman. In other words, my conversations had led me to believe that the Trust and the Medical School are entirely aware that the patients are seen and assessed, and where appropriate investigated and treated, on clinical grounds only.

Sounds familiar

ASD Researcher

We now know through the justice system that concerns raised were unfounded and had been investigated at many levels.

One therefore should ask why the General Medical Council made such a finding , later to be quashed.

Who paid for the £7 million 200 day plus investigation, who paid for the expert witnesses, what are the relationships between expert witnesses , business and government and what other insights into this matter are not being made available to the general public for them to reach their own objective conclusion.

Dyson

Their findings were challenged for only one of the three doctors. Importantly, the charges against Wakefield remain valid and sanctions remain in place.
Wakefield did not appeal.

It may have cost millions to bring down the monster, but Wakefield's actions have caused thousands of cases of infections to spread globally, and measles to become endemic again in countries from which it was eradicated. And remember Wakefield did it all for $750,000 and the promise of £40 million plus annually from his biotech companies he hoped would sell autism cures, vaccines and diagnostic tests.
The human cost of his stupidity and greed is incalculable. What price a human life, I wonder?

ASD Researcher

....and where is the full documentation that reinforces the skeptic narrative ?

Waiting ...waiting ...

Twyla

re: "Wakefield's actions have caused thousands of cases of infections to spread globally"
That's just empty spin, Dyson - a fictional narrative. Nobody would have paid attention to Dr. Wakefield were it not for thousands of parents reporting their children's adverse reactions to vaccines.

Dr. Wakefield did it all in an effort to help these children, sacrificing his career in the process.

ASD Researcher

When are we expected to see the documentation that makes your case in regards to the apparent - $750,000 and the £40 million ?

Hopefully when they do arrive there won't be any inconsistencies in the narrative.

Dyson

Documentation?
Here is the evidence about the $750,000 from antivax legal claims:
You've seen this before - why ask for it again? Do you think that by constantly crying "It never happened!", you can rewrite history?
http://briandeer.com/wakefield/legal-aid.htm

Dyson

Probably sounds familiar because all you hear are the repetitive echoes of denial rolling around in your head.

ASD Researcher

Alteration of brain volume in IL-6 overexpressing mice related to autism.

Abnormal neuroimmune responses have been reported to be associated with autism and could be appropriate targets for pharmacologic intervention.

Our previous studies showed that neuroimmune factor, interleukin (IL)-6, was significantly elevated in the frontal cortex and cerebellum of autistic subjects. The IL-6 overexpressing mice displayed several autism-like features as well as an abnormal dendritic spine morphology and synaptic function.

The brain structures surrounding the lateral ventricle were squeezed and deformed from the normal location. These results indicate that IL-6 elevation in the brain could mediate neuroanatomical abnormalities. Taking together with our previous findings, a mechanism by which IL-6 may be involved in the pathogenesis of autism is proposed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleukin_6

ASD Researcher

Temple Grandin: An Inside View of Autism

As a parent of an ASD boy with immune difficulties I have always felt that the underlying biological links with immune system dysfunction are very important ideas that need to be shared, without the "white noise" of those that do not believe they are.

Skeptics recently bough up Temple Grandin and I recently reviewed her short but interesting biography and life experiences.

Some obvious points she brings up about depression , anxiety , sensory difficulties ...and some others that intersect with this debate.

No there's nothing about vaccines ... but there's other details that may be associated with the work the professor John Walker-Smith was trying to elucidate.

Family History

There is much that can be learned from family history. During my travels to autism conferences, I have found many families with affective disorder in the family history. The relationship between autism and affective disorder has also been reported in the literature (Gillberg & Schaumann, 1981).

Family histories of high-functioning autistics often contain giftedness, anxiety or panic disorder, depression, food allergies, and learning disorders. In many of the families I have interviewed the disorders were never formally diagnosed, but careful questioning revealed them.

My own family history contains nervousness and anxiety on both sides. My grandmother has mild depression, and Tofranil has also worked wonders for her. She is also very sensitive to loud noise. She told me that when she was a little girl, the sound of coal going down the chute was torture. My sister is bothered by confusing noise from several sources. On my father's side there is explosive temper, perseveration on one topic, extreme nervousness, and food allergies. Both sides of my family contain artists. There are also signs of immune system abnormalities in myself and my siblings.

I had shingles in my thirties, and my brother had them at age 4. My sister had serious ear infections similar to the ear infections in many young autistics. My dad, brother , and myself all have eczema.

The "nerves" were almost like hypersensitivity rather than anxiety. It was like my brain was running at 200 miles an hour, instead of 60 miles an hour. Librium and Valium provided no relief. The "nerves" followed a daily cycle and were worse in the late afternoon and early evening. They subsided late at night and early in the morning. The constant nervousness would go in cycles, with a tendency to be worse in the spring and fall. The "nerves" also subsided during menstruation.

Sometimes the "nerves" would manifest themselves in other forms. For weeks I had horrible bouts of colitis. When the colitis attacks were active, the feeling of "stage-fright" nerves went away.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing about vaccines but plenty about abnormal immune responses ...

food allergies
colitis
eczema
depression
anxiety

...this feeds into the newest research on co-morbidity and physiological , genetic and neurological evidence that the immune system is a key player in ASD.

lookinglass

ASD I read that last post about Temple Grandin with great interest. I can identify with much of what is quoted here in family history ad I myself have asked this question many times, is this why I developed M.E. CFS? Having had M.E. now for 5 years I am looking very closely at immune disfunction and autism and the brian/gut link. We live in interesting times and the future I believe is not in vaccines, but in immune and gene therapies. Thanks for puttig up that post.

ASD Researcher

General Medical Council Transcripts - Vaccine Manufacturers

Mark Berelowitz examined

Q It is a letter you wrote, as Chairman of the Medical Advisory Committee, in July 2000 and we must remember that this is two years after the publication of The Lancet paper, the first Lancet paper.
A Yes.


Q It is written to Professor Taylor and it is headed, “Autistic Enterocolitis”,

“Thank you for coming to see me on 25 July. You mentioned that a paediatric gastroenterologist from Oxford, one Dr Sullivan, had contacted you about his concerns about research into the putative entity of ‘autistic enterocolitis’ at the Royal Free. We discussed the fact that his services had been engaged by the vaccine companies as part of their litigation and that he had looked at some of the case notes of the children.

He did not believe that there was anything significantly wrong with their bowels. We discussed the fact that he was by definition not an unbiased observer ...

------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting.

lilady

(Not An) ASD Researcher: I've already replied to your questions...twice.

Have you, finally, and at long last, run out of Spam?

ASD Researcher

I can only recall some attempts at deflection ... the questions are not particularly difficult for a nurse with a BSc are they ?

Dyson

And reading her response to your irrelevant questions shouldn't be difficult for a psychology graduate like yourself, John Richard (not an "ASD researcher") Smith.
Yet you seem incapable of it.

ASD Researcher

...going to have a try yourself Messr Dyson ?

ASD Researcher

Lilady

Epidemiology 101 - It ain't rocket science - The facts don't fit the narrative.

How old was patient zero ?

When was Andrew Wakefield's supposed first visit to Minneapolis ?

At what age is MMR recommended ?

What alternative vaccine has Andy Wakefield recommended ?

What was the infectious disease the child suffered ?

What are the significant cultural differences that may offer an alternative to the skeptic narrative ?

lilady

(Not An) ASD Researcher:

"I suppose it would be pertinent to remind readers of how the 'bedrock' allegations made against Professor John Walker-Smith , Dr Andrew Wakefield and Professor Simon Murch went when reviewed under appeal at the UK High Court ...'

Are you that deluded that you think you are writing a guest column for the LaCrosse Tribune? That quote that you have again and repeatedly provided us with, is from Walker-Smith's appeal. Wakefield DID NOT APPEAL.

You keep spamming this thread with your inanities...in an effort to exonerate Wakefield, by constantly bringing up Walker-Smith'a appeal.

Here again, for the umpteenth time is the decision of the GMC regarding Wakefield, which stands because he didn't appeal the decision to strike him from the register of licensed doctors in the U.K.

http://briandeer.com/solved/gmc-wakefield-sentence.pdf


ASD Researcher

Actually I'm more interested in when you are going to tie up those lose ends and answer the questions you were asked about vaccines.


ps I don't think that linking to the person that made the allegations, that were then quashed is a particularly strong, logical argument. But hey ... that's skeptics.

Dyson

It wasn't Brian Deer who made the allegations, you know it, and we all know you know it. Yet you continue to accept the antivaccine, anti-Deer mythology that is spouted by the antivax propagandists.
That's antivaxers for ya.

ASD Researcher

I must be wrong then ....must have been Richard Horton's tea brewing skills he came to observe in 2004 in the Lancet offices... that's why he bought a friend ex politician Evan Harris euphemistically known as "Dr Death" by Fleet Street.

..or I could check the GMC records.


Dyson

Despite your being wrong many many times before on different subjects, this is the first time I have seen you say you must be wrong, Mr "ASD researcher [not]".
One to print out and frame for the wall.
.
Well done. I had thought you lacked any conscience whatsoever, but perhaps there is a spark of honesty in you.

ASD Researcher

I suppose it would be pertinent to remind readers of how the 'bedrock' allegations made against Professor John Walker-Smith , Dr Andrew Wakefield and Professor Simon Murch went when reviewed under appeal at the UK High Court ...

Conclusion

"For the reasons given above, both on general issues and the Lancet paper and in relation to individual children, the panel's overall conclusion that Professor Walker-Smith was guilty of serious professional misconduct was flawed, in two respects: inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion.

Miss Glynn submits that the materials which I have been invited to consider would support many of the panel's critical findings; and that I can safely infer that, without saying so, it preferred the evidence of the GMC's experts, principally Professor Booth, to that given by Professor Walker-Smith and Dr. Murch and by Dr. Miller and Dr. Thomas. Even if it were permissible to perform such an exercise, which I doubt, it would not permit me to rescue the panel's findings. As I have explained, the medical records provide an equivocal answer to most of the questions which the panel had to decide.

The panel had no alternative but to decide whether Professor Walker-Smith had told the truth to it and to his colleagues, contemporaneously. The GMC's approach to the fundamental issues in the case led it to believe that that was not necessary – an error from which many of the subsequent weaknesses in the panel's determination flowed.

It had to decide what Professor Walker-Smith thought he was doing: if he believed he was undertaking research in the guise of clinical investigation and treatment, he deserved the finding that he had been guilty of serious professional misconduct and the sanction of erasure; if not, he did not, unless, perhaps, his actions fell outside the spectrum of that which would have been considered reasonable medical practice by an academic clinician. Its failure to address and decide that question is an error which goes to the root of its determination.

The panel's determination cannot stand. I therefore quash it. Miss Glynn, on the basis of sensible instructions, does not invite me to remit it to a fresh Fitness to Practice panel for redetermination. The end result is that the finding of serious professional misconduct and the sanction of erasure are both quashed. "

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those findings the first to be tested at a judicial level, rather than quasi-committee, speak volumes about how one should hold any further opinions offered by skeptics.

lilady

(Not An) ASD Researcher....Still posting your inanities?

Twyla...Which vaccines, with your vast *expertise* aren't you *against*? When was your child diagnosed with autism? Did your child have a preexisting genetic disorder?

Dyson

I think the answer is that a genetic disorder leading to autism can be dressed up to be blamed on vaccination. Why I can't possibly have a guess. She might as well have blamed Big Macs, driving a red car or using an iPod, for all the relevance it has.

She is not against vaccines!!!
....Except maybe all the ones used in the childhood vaccination schedule.... and most of the others too.
But that does not make her antivaccine!!!

I bet she cannot bring herself to name a single childhood vaccine that she would ever recommend that a child of hers should get.

lilady

"I think the answer is that a genetic disorder leading to autism can be dressed up to be blamed on vaccination. Why I can't possibly have a guess. She might as well have blamed Big Macs, driving a red car or using an iPod, for all the relevance it has."

Twyla, hasn't as yet, blamed vaccines for global warming or male-pattern baldness, Dyson.

"I bet she cannot bring herself to name a single childhood vaccine that she would ever recommend that a child of hers should get."

Apparently, her child's autism, which was diagnosed at age 9, was caused by every one of those childhood vaccines.

ASD Researcher

Maybe she thinks something different ... perhaps she tries to work out how her child lost skills and behaviors that had previously been developing within a normal range.

hmmm ... what can change the developmental pathway of a child so dramatically ?

What is regression in autism ? How does it relate to the GI disturbances found in children ?

How does the GI interact with neurology ?

Twyla

My child did not have regressive autism - he showed signs of autism from infancy. But those questions are very good ones, ASD Researcher.

ASD Researcher

Apologies Twyla. I shouldn't have been hazarding guesses about your child or situation .

Twyla

No problem, just wanted to clarify.

Dyson

Any answers to the questions, Twyla?
I guess not. Time for evasion again....

ASD Researcher

hmmm ... would a medicine designed specifically to stimulate the immune system be problematic for a infant child that has an autoinflammatory or autoimmune condition ?

I'll let you answer that.

hmmm ... would a medicine designed specifically to stimulate the immune system be problematic for a infant child that has a genetic predisposition to a seizure disorder ?

As above.

Twyla

Those are really good questions, too. These are the kinds of questions which science and medicine should be looking at, instead of just defensively saying, "No link! Just a coincidence!"

Studies have found high rates of autoimmune disorders in family members of children with autism. Why? What does this mean?

Dyson

I think the intricacies of the adaptive immune system are a little more complex than you think, "not an ASD researcher".

You really should have taken that online course I recommended for you with the University of Pennsylvania that you were so dismissive about.

ASD Researcher

Sorry Dyson but finding an online course through Google ... doesn't address current complex research findings in autism.


Dyson

Amazing!!!!
Firstly, the course was not advertised through Google - you had to be signed up for info from the University in order to register for it and they emailed you all the details. Absolutely nothing stopping you doing so though. You would have gained some insight into what the word "immunity" means. It's a bit more complex than your simplistic impression of it.

And where is it that you and all your fellow antivaccine trolls find your "research", may I ask?

Hmmmm..... at a guess I'd say ... wait for it.......Google.

I could be wrong though. Perhaps you really are an academic researcher into ASD, and actually study real people with ASD and read paper journals.
Nah... that would be wishful thinking. You've already told us you are not an ASD researcher.

ASD Researcher

(Reply to below)

Amazing !!!! I googled University of Pennsylvania online course immune system ... and there it was.

...and of course the usual transparent blah blah blah.

Dyson

So, registered and signed up for it yet, John Richard Smith (NOT an "ASD researcher")?

It's never too late to learn.

ASD Researcher

I'm not sure if the lecturer has any qualifications in Autism Spectrum Disorders ?

That would be problematic ...

ASD Researcher

Still dodging those questions on vaccines ?

Do they cover genes and environment interaction at college these days ?

Dyson

Well, Twyla? Any answer?
Or are you still dodging those questions on vaccines?
Let's ask "ASD" researcher what he thinks.

ASD Researcher

Why we need to look at the Immune System

Obviously sophisticated insight is not de rigueur for the skeptic blogosphere ... we need to know the how and the what interactions are taking place in ASD children ... virus , bacteria , prenatal , postnatal , neonatal , gastrointestinal system, pollutant, chemical , food ... etc etc.

There is a wealth of information driven by physiology , neurology and genetics that at the heart of major portion of ASD , immune system dysfunction is central.

For instance gene expression profiling clearly indicate immune signalling pathways ...

Expression profiling of autism candidate genes during human brain development implicates central immune signaling pathways.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3174192/

Interestingly, there is also mounting evidence at the cellular and tissue levels that more in depth investigation of an immune component is warranted in ASD [46].

For instance, multiple studies have demonstrated altered cytokine profiles in ASD patients [47], [48], and altered TGF-B concentration in serum and CSF correlates with disease severity [49].

Others have described various autoimmune phenomena including autoantibodies to neural antigens and maternal-fetal cross-reactive neural antibodies [50].

There is also indication of altered innate cellular immunity in ASD, such as differences in gene expression and altered response to immunostimlulatory ligands in both natural killer and monocytic cells from ASD patients

Post-mortem brain tissue from ASD patients shows increased microglial density in grey matter, an activated morphology, and secretion of a cytokine profile consistent with a pro-inflammatory state, most prominent in the cerebellum

Moreover, microglia from MeCP2- null mice—a model of the Autism Spectrum Disorder Rett Syndrome—produce a conditioned media that damages synaptic connectivity via a glutamate-excitotoxicity mechanism [55].

While all of this work provides post-hoc evidence for altered immune response in ASD, our results suggest a direct link between implicated genes in ASD and molecular pathways involved in immune signaling.

This considerable attention to the immune response in previous ASD research has resulted in two prevailing theories: one suggests exogenous factor(s) stimulate neuro-inflammation during development, while the other postulates autoimmune activation causes ASD pathology

However, it is equally possible—as our results support—that the mutations described in ASD result in aberrant signaling regulation of immune cells during neurodevelopment. This could result in cell-autonomous activation and/or improper response to otherwise nominal stimuli, such as occurs in the autoinflammatory syndromes

Alternatively, as glia are increasingly implicated in normal formation of synaptic connectivity [24]—and we have demonstrated a significant proportion of ASD-implicated genes appear to be glial-specific—it is possible that genomic aberrations ultimately funnel through core signaling pathways of glial cells to disrupt formation of neural networks independent of an inflammatory mechanism.

In support of this notion, a number of recent reports have demonstrated that these same cytokine signaling pathways are central to proper brain development [59], [60]. Furthermore, signaling through the NFkB pathway has been shown to be important in synaptic plasticity independent of an inflammatory mechanism [61].

Moreover, two of three genome-wide expression studies in Autism brain tissue conclude that the most prominent transcriptome changes are related to neuro-immune disturbances.

In the Garbett et al study, the most significant functional pathway implicated was NFκB signaling [31]. The most comprehensive transcriptomics study of ASD post-mortem brain to date (Voineagu et al) concludes that one of two significant co-expression networks is involved in immune function [32]. While our results are only a first step in linking common molecular interaction pathways to the underlying genetic heterogeneity of ASD, they provide integrated genomic evidence, which is supported by these transcriptomics, cell, and tissue level studies that further investigation into cytokine signaling in ASD is needed.

In summary, we report the spatial and temporal expression profile of genes implicated in Autism Spectrum Disorders, in addition to the genetically and phenotypically related neurodevelopmental disorders Schizophrenia and Epilepsy. We found a large proportion of implicated genes are not expressed in the developing human brain, and a significant number appear to be mainly expressed in glial cells. Integrated gene-network analysis, gene ontology enrichment, and canonical pathways investigation of a subset of highly expressed ASD genes all implicate central immune signaling pathways as common to the heterogeneous interactome of the implicated genes. This work serves as a framework to link the genetic findings in ASD with transcriptome, cell, and tissue level evidence for altered immune functions in ASD patients.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now clearly the point is -

1. The Immune System is central to understanding what ASD is and how it unfolds.

2. The further understanding of immune system interactions may unlock treatment regimes ... this has already been demonstrated via mouse models.

3. There is a range of key concepts that have to be unlocked independent of 'vaccines' , bacteria , virus , infection , genes , genetic expression, chemicals and other environmental toxins ...

4. In fact some of the most likely candidates are viruses in the prenatal environment - that means that VACCINES and vaccination at critical developmental times may be the preventative measure ...

Gosh fancy thinking that vaccines may actually be part of an ASD "reduction" ... "cure" whatever you want to call it.

Science does not function well in a climate of fear , paranoia and hysteria. The vilification of Professor John Walker-Smith clearly indicates the something profoundly wrong with this issue, where those interested in unpacking the enigma that is ASD are consistently and constantly attacked.

*sigh* It's not going to change ...

Science will have answers to ASD in the near future and the immune system will be central to a better quality of life for many. If it happens to intersect with some personal constructs people have built so be it ...

Twyla

Bravo, ASDR - thank you for taking the time to post all this very interesting, important information.

I agree that there are most likely many factors involved in autism, not only vaccines but also others such as environmental toxins and genetic susceptibility. Multiple factors may be involved for a single individual, plus Autism is a spectrum - it is heterogeneous and may have a variety of etiologies.

While it is possible that infections could cause some autism, it is important to note that back when everyone came down with measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, chicken pox, etc. - before vaccines for these diseases existed - the rate of autism was much lower than it is now. Some will say, "Well if vaccines can cause autism, just think how much worse it would be if we were actually coming down with these diseases?" But the wild diseases apparently did not cause so much autism.

And I'm not saying we should do away with vaccines. I do believe in the importance of vaccines. I'm saying that the adverse reactions need to be looked at honestly, for the sake of prevention, treatment, weighing the risks and benefits of each vaccine for each disease, and making the vaccine program as safe as possible. And I believe that all individuals must have the right to make informed choices for themselves and for their minor children.

I agree that "Science does not function well in a climate of fear, paranoia and hysteria. The vilification of Professor John Walker-Smith clearly indicates the something profoundly wrong with this issue, where those interested in unpacking the enigma that is ASD are consistently and constantly attacked." It's a crazy situation, not one that I would ever have imagined.

Dyson

Twyla, I think you were too superficial in your reading of the copypasta provided by John Richard Smith (NOT an ASD researcher).

He knows how to insert HTML code for bolded text - I guess it's his way of jumping up and down saying "HEY! YOU! Look at me! ...Me, MEEEEE!" Marginally better than having a tantrum in the aisle at Walmart's, but only just.

But he does say this, which you obviously missed:
In fact some of the most likely candidates are viruses in the prenatal environment - that means that VACCINES and vaccination at critical developmental times may be the preventative measure ...
Gosh fancy thinking that vaccines may actually be part of an ASD "reduction" ... "cure" whatever you want to call it.

lilady

Twyla, (Not An) ASD Researcher a.k.a. John Richard Smith who posts on the Huffington Post...and a.k.a. Blackheart who posts on science blogs, is just a copy pasta-ing troll.

Twyla, which vaccine...or which vaccines caused your child's autism? We have only this documentation that you posted on line.

"My son) was diagnosed with autism at the age of 9 years. (My son) always displayed a lot of self-stimming behavior but was so affectionate that his parents did not believe he was autistic."

ASD Researcher

Always bemusing that skeptics when confronted, rely on the same tired old tactics.

Twyla

Dyson, I didn't miss that. I responded to it.

Funny how you and lilady can't respond with any thoughtfulness, only gibes etc.

Dyson

As far as tactics go John, how about your tactic of copypasta spamming irrelevant studies and comments unrelated to the discussion?
It's so sad and boringly predictable. What is amusing is your idea that you are somehow reaching a receptive audience - currently there are only 3 people sometimes logging in to see your garbage - Twyla who is so credulous and antivaccine that if you said vaccines caused alien abductions she would cheer from the sidelines, and Lilady and me who have long since seen through your evasive tactics and goslpost shifting.

ASD Researcher

Twyla

...and obviously continues. Some people do not want their own constructs they have carefully built around a rather swampy foundations disturbed.

Others like yourself I'm sure are willing to embrace new dimensions and knowledge that may present a clearer picture of this issue.

Dyson

You say you are the "ASD researcher".

What are you doing about it?

lilady

"You say you are the "ASD researcher".

"What are you doing about it?"

(Not An) ASD Researcher has been too busy *organizing* and copy pasta-ing his comments here, to really do anything about it. He's so busted.

ASD Researcher

How we going on those questions lilady ?

Dyson

Yeah, busted. All he can do is post spam studies irrelevant to the discussion, or cranky references to Walker Smith, who isn't even under discussion. Say we decide to talk about Halloween, or the Bengals beating the Steelers? They are just as relevant.

Dyson

All relevant questions were answered, John (not an ASD researcher) Richard Smith.
Don't blame us if you didn't understand the answers. But I'm not surprised, as the questions seemed beyond you too.

ASD Researcher

I think that would be obvious Dyson. Parents observed significant changes to their children ie regression of skills and behavior that have now been confirmed by medical science. The relationships that are now being uncovered are a true science based narrative that has to be told.

Dyson

Deliberate comprehension fail, Mr John Richard Smith.

You claim you are a "researcher".

What are YOU specifically doing about ASD research?
Tell us about your randomized studies, your population cohorts, your grant applications, your funding sources, your conference poster presentations, your peer-reviewed publications, and the impact your work has had on other researchers in the field....

Oh, I get it, there is none. You were lying.

Dyson

Take home message of this research (and confirmed by many other studies) is that autism is primarily genetic. Not entirely, but primarily.

"Pairwise ASD concordance was 31% for DZ and 88% for MZ twins"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19805709
(Translation: if one of a pair of monozygotic twins [ie genetically identical] has autism, then there is a 9 in 10 chance the other twin will also have autism. Genetically disparate twins (who have identical environmental exposures) show 31% concordance.

Take home message for antivax conspiracists who claim autism is caused by vaccines..... Ouch!

ASD Researcher

Sorry Dyson ASD research has moved on from 2009 ... but then in what areas are gene expression studies showing aberrant findings ?

Let me guess the immune system.

Ouch!

Dyson

So the kids who had autism in 2009 don't have it now?
Gosh, how wonderful it must be to live in Denial city with the rest of your antivax trolls.

PS "immune system" is not some scientific euphemism for "vaccines", but I know you guys struggle with the science.

ASD Researcher

"So the kids who had autism in 2009 don't have it now?"

Is that supposed to be an intelligent retort ?

"Gosh, how wonderful it must be to live in Denial city with the rest of your antivax trolls."

ummm ... immune system doesn't equate to vaccines did it .. but thanks for the hyperbolic overreaction.

Dyson

Wait for it.... antivax troll evasive response coming up any time now....

lilady

@ Dyson: MRI of Temple Grandin's Brain...

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/2012/10/19/a-little-hard-science-from-the-big-easy-temple-grandins-brain-and-transgenic-sniffer-mice/

"Grandin herself wanted to know more about the biological basis of her cognitive strengths and deficits. So she entered into a collaboration with the University of Utah, which performed a battery of imaging tests—MRI, DTI and fMRI—to determine brain volume, cortical thickness and the structure of the insulating white matter that surrounds the long, wire-like axons that connect one brain cell with another. Supplemented with neuropsychological testing, researchers compared these results with those from three other “neurotypical” female subjects of about the same age.

It turns out that Grandin’s brain appears to be similar to that of other autistic savants. She has greater volume in the right hemisphere, which might account for her superior visuospatial abilities. She also has increased thickness of the entorhinal cortex, an area involved with memory As with others with autism, she has an overall larger brain size. And the enlarged amygdala and the smaller cortical thickness in the fusiform gyrus may relate to the deficits autistic individuals experience in dealing with emotion and reading faces. “There’s this idea in the savant literature that left hemisphere damage occurs during development and the right hemisphere compensates in some way,” says Jason Cooperrider, a graduate student at the University of Utah who presented the findings at the conference. “All of the savant skills are right hemisphere-dominant abilities, which would include Dr. Grandin’s exceptional visual and spatial ability which would be considered savant level.”

Take home message for antivax conspiracists who claim autism is caused by vaccines..... Ouch!

Dyson

Did she sue the vaccine manufacturers for making her so brainy?

lilady

Dyson: No. She didn't sue vaccine manufacturers, nor did her parents. It is only the brainless science illiterates, who still believe that vaccines are linked to autism.

Twyla

So either:
1) Perhaps Temple Grandin's autism was not caused by vaccines. Certainly this is quite possible. This would not mean that nobody's autism is caused by vaccines. I don't know anyone who is saying that ALL autism is caused by vaccines.
Or:
2) Perhaps vaccines can change the trajectory of brain development. Given the amount of science now showing a close relationship between the immune and nervous systems, and given that some vaccine ingredients such as aluminum are known to affect the brain, this is plausible. As Dr. Judy Van de Water of UC Davis wrote, "Decades of research links immunological abnormalities to ASD. In light of the extensive crosstalk between the immune and neural systems, which includes shared signaling and developmental pathways, this line of research can yield important insights in atypical brain development."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898160/

ASD Researcher

Other than cherry picking the usual dated research .... there's a word you might take time understanding...

heterogeneous


Twyla

New Autism Twin Study Demolishes Decades-Long Belief in Genetic Causation
http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/07/new-autism-twin-study-demolishes-decades-long-belief-in-genetic-causation.html

Twyla

In the article I linked to above, Mark Blaxill does a thorough review of twin studies. In addition, he tells this interesting story:

"One of these was a pair of... identical twin boys, given up for adoption at birth by a woman named Kim Stewart who retained contact with the adoptive families. Both families provided a loving environment for their sons, both children lived in similar parts of the country and developed normally, as 'healthy, happy boys,' for the first fifteen months of life. The first joined a family of Christian Scientists, received no vaccinations of any kind and continued to develop normally. The second joined a family that followed more conventional infant vaccination schedules and regressed into autism after receiving his fifteen month shots. The only non-shared twin environmental risk the birth mother could pinpoint was that separating the boys at birth led one to be fully vaccinated and autistic and the other to be unvaccinated and healthy. 'I became convinced,' she told us, that 'vaccinations played a significant role in his regression.'”

Dyson

Mark Blaxhill have any scientific credentials in this area?
I think not.
He helps run an antivaccine organization. Hardly objective.

Twyla

from "Time to Get a Grip" by Martha R. Herbert, M.D., Ph.D.

"It is often said that autism is the most highly genetic of the neurobehavioral disorders, and that there is little or no evidence of environmental factors.28 However, observations about environmental factors relevant to autism go back decades, though they have been obscured in recent years by the dominance of a genetic focus. The view of autism as genetically determined is supported by observations of high 'concordance' (matching autism diagnoses between identical twins) and high recurrence (increased chance of subsequent children having some kind of autism spectrum disorder after an autistic child is born into a family). In addition, a claim that autism is predominantly genetic rests on an assumption that our environment is stable and/or that we are not affected by environmental changes.

"When we examine the frequently cited figure of a 90 percent 'concordance rate' among identical twins (meaning that if one twin is autistic, there is a 90 percent chance that the other one will also be autistic), we can see that it overstates the case. Among identical twins, there is a 90 percent chance that if one twin is fully autistic, the other will have some autistic features, but only a 60 percent chance that the second twin will be fully autistic. While some researchers tend to focus on the 60 percent to make a case for genetic predisposition, we need to explain the 40 percent as well. To explain this nonconcordance we need to think about not just genes, but also the environment. More- over, we also need to explain recent reports of high concordance among dizygotic (fraternal) twins, which suggest environmental rather than genetic factors.

"We also know that the number of people diagnosed with autism has skyrocketed, both in the U.S. and in other countries. The current figures are running ten times higher than they were 15 or 20 years ago. The twin concordance data just discussed may not even apply to the new cases, since the studies were done before these increases were observed. Some say that the increases are merely due to better awareness and diagnosis of autism, or expanded diagnostic criteria. However, we would need solid proof of this claim in order to dismiss the possibility that something new, different and harmful is going on with our children—and such proof does not exist. Autism increases point to a role for the environment, since genes don’t change that fast..."
http://support.autism-society.org/site/DocServer/eh_get_a_grip.pdf?docID=4821

Martha Herbert, M.D., Ph.D., is an assistant professor of neurology at Harvard Medical School, and a pediatric neurologist at the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston and Cambridge Health Alliance Center for Child and Adolescent Development. She received her medical degree from Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, did her pediatric training at Cornell University Medical Center in New York City and her neurology training at the Massachusetts General Hospital.

Dyson

I'd say it's time to get a grip, Twyla

lilady

I'd say it's time to "get a grip" as well, Twyla.

Let us know when you blog again at Age of Autism, Twyla. I so enjoy your totally pseudo science/sarcasm.

ASD Researcher

Genetic heritability and shared environmental factors among twin pairs with autism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21727249

Gold standard diagnostic tools undertaken by researchers at Stanford School of Medicine and still we will here ...spam. I'm sure the real researchers will be bemused.

For strict autism, probandwise concordance for male twins was 0.58 for 40 monozygotic pairs (95% confidence interval [CI], 0.42-0.74) and 0.21 for 31 dizygotic pairs (95% CI, 0.09-0.43); for female twins, the concordance was 0.60 for 7 monozygotic pairs (95% CI, 0.28-0.90) and 0.27 for 10 dizygotic pairs (95% CI, 0.09-0.69). For ASD, the probandwise concordance for male twins was 0.77 for 45 monozygotic pairs (95% CI, 0.65-0.86) and 0.31 for 45 dizygotic pairs (95% CI, 0.16-0.46); for female twins, the concordance was 0.50 for 9 monozygotic pairs (95% CI, 0.16-0.84) and 0.36 for 13 dizygotic pairs (95% CI, 0.11-0.60).

A large proportion of the variance in liability can be explained by shared environmental factors (55% ... for autism

and 58%; 95% CI, 30%-80% for ASD)

in addition to moderate genetic heritability (37%...for autism and 38% for ASD).

CONCLUSION:

Susceptibility to ASD has moderate genetic heritability and a substantial shared twin environmental component.

----------------------------------------------------------

Take Home Message for skeptics - Ouch

lilady

Still spamming (Not An) ASD Researcher?

Still supporting the fraudulent junk science of the disgraced former doctor Andrew Wakefield, (Not An) ASD Researcher?

You're making a fool out of yourself with your spamming walls of texts, (Not An) ASD Researcher.

ASD Researcher

How are those vaccine questions coming along ? You seem to have set them aside.

Dyson

How are those explanations and excuses for Wakefield's fraud, duplicity, conflicts of interest and unprofessional conduct coming along?

ASD Researcher

Still dodging ... where's the documents Dyson ?

Dyson

Where is the evidence, "not" an "ASD researcher"?

Dyson

Dodge, dive, duck, weave. Becoming a real expert, huh John?
Perhaps I should relabel myself an "evasion tactic researcher" purely based upon my experience of your idiocy, John Richard (NOT an "ASD researcher") Smith.

ASD Researcher

Autism and the Immune System (from July 2012 alone)

Here's some of the science that says even vaccines are going to be part of continuing investigation. Whatever the outcome...

Peripheral and central inflammation in autism spectrum disorders.
PMID: 23069728

Myeloid dendritic cells frequencies are increased in children with autism spectrum disorder and associated with amygdala volume and repetitive behaviors.
PMID:23063420

Modeling autism: a systems biology approach.

PMID: 23043674

Autism: where genetics meets the immune system.
PMID: 22988503

Neurological perspectives on voltage-gated sodium channels. Allele-biased expression in differentiating human neurons: implications for neuropsychiatric disorders.

PMID: 22952857

Prenatal and Postnatal Epigenetic Programming: Implications for GI, Immune, and Neuronal Function in Autism.
PMID: 22934169

Interleukin-2 and the brain: dissecting central versus peripheral contributions using unique mouse models.

PMID: 22933152
[PubMed - in process]

Autism spectrum disorders: from immunity to behavior.
PMID: 22933149

HLA Immune Function Genes in Autism.
PMID:22928105

Is autism a member of a family of diseases resulting from genetic/cultural mismatches? Implications for treatment and prevention.

PMID: 22928103
[PubMed]

High complement factor I activity in the plasma of children with autism spectrum disorders.
PMID: 22928102

Cytokine dysregulation in autism spectrum disorders (ASD): Possible role of the environment.
PMID:22918031

Modeling an autism risk factor in mice leads to permanent immune dysregulation.
PMID: 22802640

The major histocompatibility complex and autism spectrum disorder.
PMID:22760919

Immune system gene dysregulation in autism and schizophrenia.
PMID: 22753382

--------------------------------------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=autism%20immune%20system

306 studies


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=autism%20gastrointestinal

236 studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=autism%20inflammation

159 studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=autism%20immune%20genes

58 studies


Dyson

Except John Richard Smith (NOT an "ASD researcher"), vaccines don't figure in any of these studies you cite as demonstrating vaccines are going to be part of the continuing investigation.

Yours is the Chewbacca defense, and you know it.

ASD Researcher

Read through your comment again and take time to reflect on what it implies ?

Dyson

I know exactly what it implies.
Thanks for confirming I was spot on.

lilady

Still spamming (Not An) ASD Researcher?

Here again, from PubMed, 324 studies that disprove any and all links between vaccine and ASDs...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=19952979

ASD Researcher

I don't think you quite realize how out of touch you are with the current science.

ps How are those questions on vaccines going ?

Dyson

How's that evidence for MMR causing autism coming along?

Dyson

Nice references, Lilady.
Science 324, antivaxers nil.

ASD Researcher

The Lancet 12 Parents

It is now obvious that the parents involved in the Lancet 12 paper made quite honest and robust observations of their children and also sought the relevant clinicians to help address a complex process that they said involved their children's immune system and gastrointestinal system. This resulted in 'regression' of previously learnt skills and behaviors. The children changed and significantly so ...

The science now says quite clearly that GI , Immune system and neurology (autism or regression) are linked.

Thus the parental; observations they made and which have been consistently and constantly vilified are in fact real events in their child's development.

We still have a long way to go , there is plenty of science left to be explored and unwrapped ...

Do I know how the science will play out ... no and I'm happy to admit it.

The skeptics, that have tried to railroad simple scientific endeavor , most notably the work of Professor John Walker-Smith and his team , now need to step down from this debate.

Simply because they were wrong about those parents and those that cared for their children.

Dyson

Most of the Lancet 12 parents were keen to find out what was wrong with their kids, keen to benefit from antivaccine litigation (since they blamed vaccines for their kid's autism) and stupidly put their trust in Wakefield.
That doesn't make them bad parents, and no-one is saying so.

Straw man fallacy, and you know it.

lilady

Yup, Wakefield and the lawyer were "trolling" for parents who wanted to cash in for their kid's diagnoses of ASDs...through JABS...a notorious anti-vaccine organization in the U.K.

Whatever happened to all the tissue specimens removed from the childrens' bowels during colonoscopies and all the pathology reports? They all "mysteriously" disappeared.

Dyson

Well, if you were a fraudulent researcher who had engineered misreporting of pathology specimens, wouldn't you make them disappear?

lilady

Wakefield already discarding any semblance of ethics...when he became part of a scheme to sue vaccine manufacturers, Dyson.

Just another step down the slippery slope for the disgraced, former doctor who engaged in...and reported...scientific fraud. Why didn't Wakefield take up the offer to repeat the results...when his *study* was discredited and ten of the twelve co-authors of the *study* disavowed and distanced themselves from the *study*?

ASD Researcher

From below ...

"Well, if you were a fraudulent researcher who had engineered misreporting of pathology specimens, wouldn't you make them disappear?"

ummm ... so now the conspiracy relies on Professor Dhillon (The Pathologist) and Professor John Walker-Smith and a host of other researchers not knowing what their experienced eyes saw through examination via both pathology and colonoscopy.

...and apparently a journalist can diagnose inflammation of the GI tract without the prerequisite pathology slides "missing" or not. (if indeed they are missing).

Nice piece of cognitive dissonance going on there Dyson.

Dyson

Yep, let's try that conspiracy thing again shall we.....

Dyson

I also recall the BMJ analysis relied on 5 renowned experts in gastrointestinal pathology.
Seems like Wakefield needed a sewerage "expert" to help analyze his, after his own co-authors and "experts" backed down about their own findings..

ASD Researcher

...and then lilady steps in ... lol.

lilady

O/T but…Comedy Central has a program “Night of Too Many Stars” which is supporting autism research:

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/night-of-too-many-stars

Dyson

Science wins over conspiracy theory

Yeah - that's how it is.
Solid science wins out against the bizzarro conspiracist notion Wakefield had that everyone was out to get him.

Vaccines do not cause autism.

ASD Researcher

It's a more complex and sophisticated interaction between physiology, neurology, genetic risk, and environment.

That's science Dyson ... it's moved on from simple cause and effect relationships.

ps Still haven't seen those documents ?

Dyson

Still no evidence from you for MMR causing autism, John (Not an ASD researcher) Richard Smith.
Merely posturing.
And spamming.

Dyson

Complex, yes, but caused by vaccines, no.
What documents?

ASD Researcher

Nice backpedal ... with a slight intellectual coyness.

So when are we going to see those documents ?

Dyson

And when do we see any evidence that vaccines cause autism?

ASD Researcher

SCN1A

Dyson

Never, seems like it.

Why do these antivaxers keep aiming loaded weapons at their own feet?

ASD Researcher

The real evidence of immunology , physiology and neurology says something happens to those children and their immune response , something happens to their GI tract , something intersects to create 'regression ... skeptics can offer no plausible biological reason why these events and evidence exist.

Now it seems only one party is trying to tease out real science ... the skeptics have closed up shop on the scientific and judicial evidence refusing to answer the most mundane of questions or produce the most mundane document.

Fortunately autism science has not stopped ... the physiology of ASD children is unlocking the secrets of pathology and etiology

University of California scientists are delving further and further into the relationship of the immune system and neurology ... and bingo.

Science wins over conspiracy theory

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The pathophysiology of Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) is not yet known; however, studies suggest that dysfunction of the immune system affects many children with ASD.

Increasing evidence points to dysfunction of the innate immune system including activation of microglia and perivascular macrophages, increases in inflammatory cytokines/chemokines in brain tissue and CSF, and abnormal peripheral monocyte cell function.

Dendritic cells are major players in innate immunity and have important functions in the phagocytosis of pathogens or debris, antigen presentation, activation of naïve T cells, induction of tolerance and cytokine/chemokine production.

In this study, we assessed circulating frequencies of myeloid dendritic cells (defined as Lin-1(-)BDCA1(+)CD11c(+) and Lin-1(-)BDCA3(+)CD123(-)) and plasmacytoid dendritic cells (Lin-1(-)BDCA2(+)CD123(+) or Lin-1(-)BDCA4(+) CD11c(-)) in 57 children with ASD, and 29 typically developing controls of the same age, all of who were enrolled as part of the Autism Phenome Project (APP).

The frequencies of dendritic cells and associations with behavioral assessment and MRI measurements of amygdala volume were compared in the same participants.

The frequencies of myeloid dendritic cells were significantly increased in children with ASD compared to typically developing controls (p < 0.03).</b>

Elevated frequencies of myeloid dendritic cells were positively associated with abnormal right and left amygdala enlargement, severity of gastrointestinal symptoms and increased repetitive behaviors.

The frequencies of plasmacytoid dendritic cells were also associated with amygdala volumes as well as developmental regression in children with ASD.

Dendritic cells play key roles in modulating immune responses and differences in frequencies or functions of these cells may result in immune dysfunction in children with ASD. These data further implicate innate immune cells in the complex pathophysiology of ASD.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take Home message from Professor John Walker-Smith after 14 years of vilification....

Immune system dysfunction , gastrointestinal system , neurology and autism behaviours and regression all linked.

Simply beautiful and elegant science ...


Twyla

Thank you, ASD Researcher. This is such important information.

Dyson

Information, yes. Important? Who knows how much.
But the problem for you Twyla is how to weave this type of information into your "autism is caused by vaccines" mantra.

ASD Researcher

Think 'regression' in ASD ... GI, Immune system , regression ... elegantly elucidated by Professor John Walker-Smith.

Dyson

Still don't see "vaccines" in there, Smith.

lilady

(Not An) ASD Researcher still spamming with copy pasta?

Give it up, you're acting the part of the fool. Just another clown from the anti-vaccine clown car.

ASD Researcher

As unsophisticated a response as can be articulated.

ASD Researcher

I see that Justice Mitting UK High Court

An eminent doctor was celebrating a dramatic victory today after the
High Court ruled that a decision to strike him off over the MMR
controversy was unlawful.

Professor John Walker-Smith had been found guilty of professional misconduct following accusations of taking part, without ethical approval, in controversial research that caused a global scare by suggesting a link between the MMR vaccine, bowel disease and autism.

The doctor, who is in his 70s and retired, denied allegations that he had participated in the research under the guise of carrying out clinical investigations and treatment of young patients.

He said the treatments, including lumbar punctures and colonoscopies, were clinically indicated and were necessary for the purposes of diagnosis and treatment, but not for a research project.

Today he said he was "extremely pleased" his striking-off had been quashed and now hoped "to enjoy my retirement with my family".

He paid tribute to his supporters who included the parents of many children with autism and bowel disease seen by him at the Royal Free Hospital in north London up to his retirement in 2001.

______________________________________________________

Well I'm sticking with real doctors , real parents and real patients ...

Dyson

" I see that Brian Deer has posted an item at his website which seems to reply pretty much to everything here. Well done Mr Deer (but it took you long enough!)"
http://briandeer.com/solved/vanderhorst-larson.htm

Thanks for that.
The supposed "debate" really is over.

All we can read here are the plaintive whines from a one or two dementedly persistent, trollish Wakefield apologists, desperately trying to convince themselves that black is white, and Wakefield is not a totally discredited fraud, ignominiously struck off the medical register and stripped of his medical license for misconduct and harming children. "La la la la, fingers in ears, we can't hear you!" In their Stalin-airbrushed fantasy, Wakefield strides the medical world like a heroic colossus, his reputation intact, his actions justified, his "science" hailed as verified and replicated, his Nobel medicine award in the pipeline and his sainthood merely a matter of time. How supposedly rational and intelligent people can continue to think as they do will never cease to amaze me, but Shermer certainly nailed it in his book.

lilady

@ Dyson...There NEVER was a debate. The Age of Autism (a notorious crank anti-vaccine organization), posted an article on September 24th, to alert Wqkefield's loyal sycophants, that Mr. Deer was invited to U.Wisconsin-LaCrosse to speak about Andy's bogus study, and to bring out the *troops* to attend Wakefield's pathetic hastily arranged *press conference in a gun shelter in a public park".

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/09/guess-whos-coming-to-america-brian-deer-to-speak-in-wisconsin-wakefield-press-conference-first.html

Now Mr. Deer has posted a reply to that letter/protest *supposedly* signed by a member of the Minnesota Canary Party. I truly doubt that the person who signed that letter actually composed that letter. Why didn't Mark Blaxill, Chairman of the National Canary Party sign that ludicrous letter? I suspect that Mr. Blaxill who is Editor-at-Large at the AoA, in league with the *brain trust* at AoA, wrote that letter, and had the local representative of the Canary Party, Ms. VanDerHorst-Larson sign the letter.

Pathetic.

ASD Researcher

Dyson who ? Not much left ...

Twyla

Dyson, that would make a nice intro to a fictional novel, but it has no basis in reality.

lilady

You ought to know fiction Twyla...including the fiction that you have posted for years about the age of you son's autism diagnosis...and his genetic syndrome.

Twyla

(not a) lilady, I have never posted any fiction about my son.

Dyson

Twyla, we all know that your son's autism is the result of his genetic syndrome.
Yet you have insisted that it is due to vaccination.
That is quite ludicrous.

Twyla

Dyson, you all know nothing about my son, including nothing about what caused/causes his autism.

It's truly amazing that so many of the people who pride themselves on science and skepticism - and who criticize jumping to conclusions or confusing correlation with causation - also jump to conclusions regarding other commenters' children, insisting that based on a tiny amount of information available via comments or a few posts these people can form firm opinions about others' children.

Furthermore, although I do insist that sometimes vaccines cause autism, I have never offered my son's case as proof of this. After many years of studying these issues, I do believe his autism was caused by vaccines - together with other factors which made him susceptible to autism - but I cannot prove this to you.

ASD Researcher

Apparently Dyson has a belief that if you are a parent you should have a deeper knowledge of the science , that has only been elucidated over the last 12 months, by some of the brightest minds in genetics , immunology , physiology and neurology.

Are your observations about your child right o wrong ...we don't know at this stage and may never know.

But I certainly know the opinions of skeptics are insignificant.

Dyson

Twyla, I am not suggesting your son is "proof" that vaccines cause autism (how could that be, sine they don't?). I am saying you say vaccines caused your son's autism, which you have neatly confirmed for us is exactly what you think and say.

But since he has a genetic syndrome that caused his neurodevelopmental abnormalities, I fail to see how you can say vaccines are the cause.

Dyson

Twyla, are you confirming you do not recognize or believe in that description of your maverick hero?

My, we are finally getting somewhere.

ASD Researcher

I think it's back to Brian who ?

Science will settle what the parents observed, although obviously it needs help from the UK high Court (twice now) to cut through the varying narratives.

lilady

His name is Brian Deer, whose superb investigative journalism, located all the dirty deals, the undeclared conflicts of interest, the payoff from the attorney for his *expertise* and the patent for Andy's substitute single antigen measles vaccine.

You're backing a disgraced former doctor, (Not An ASD Researcher).

ASD Researcher

I suppose it will have to be Brian who , what , when , how ...?

Dyson

The scale of the antivax lunacy and ignorance would be amusing, would children's' lives not be at stake.

lilady

The anti-vax lunacy is not amusing. They have an agenda...to destroy our public health system. The loss of children to vaccine-preventable-diseases is just so much collateral damage, to them. Downright disgusting and pathetic.

Dyson

I think Not an ASD researcher needs reminding about Wakefield's failed attempts to sue Deer in the UK courts (twice now).

But then its a question of love them when they're with you, hate them when they ain't.

Consistency. Another quality absent from the antivax propaganda armory.

lilady

Dyson...I confess I am at a loss to interpret (Not An) ASD Researcher's supercilious commentary. Thanks for that interpretation.

ASD Researcher

It seems more like a reminder that when under pressure ... change the subject.

Still waiting for that documentation Dyson.

Dyson

And what do antivaxers like you do?

ASD Researcher

Putting aside the rather lame 'antivaxer' moment ... some of us try to understand complex diseases and neurodevelopmental disorders in the best interests of all including vaccinated children.

You seem to forget I have more than one child, one with ASD and one without, both are fully vaccinated.

For your information vaccines are not the only "game in town" , their are investigations surrounding virus exposure at prenatal , neonatal and postnatal , as well as allergens , bacteria and infections, environmental chemicals and medicines including acetaminophen (paracetamol).

I must admit it's like talking to a new generation of Luddites.

Science moves forward get over it.

Dyson

I am well aware that vaccines don't cause autism - so what makes you think that I say they are the only game in town? That particular insistence comes from your antivax cronies on the propaganda websites like Age of Autism, where vaccines are indeed thought of as "the only game in town".

I suggest that rather than posting your meaningless spam here on La Crosse Tribune where there are only one or two people left to look at your verbiage, let alone read it, you graduate up to posting on AoA where your thoughts will be no doubt most welcomed!

lilady

Thanks Taylor for the link to Mr. Deer's website. It does confirm everything, I have posted here about the Minneapolis measles outbreak 2011 and Wakefield's trips to Minneapolis both before and during the outbreak, to meet with Somali parents to pursuade them to not vaccinate their children against measles.

I also found the funding for this endeavor in Wakefield's super-secret "Strategic Autism Initiative"...which has in the past...and may still be receiving $100,000/year from Jenny McCarthy's Generation Rescue (which is affiliated with Age of Autism). Apparently Ms. Van der Horst (and her Canary Party members) were actively involved with Somali Parents for quite some time before Wakefield made those three trips (that we know of) to speak with those parents.

Mr. Deer's article also mentions Dr. Buie and his efforts to duplicate Wakefield's "study" findings and was unsuccessful, which I also discussed on this thread, as well.

Regarding that ridiculous letter sent by the Canary Party, to University Wisconsin-LaCrosse
protesting Mr. Deer's seminars and protesting the (non) debate with Wakefield, signed by Vanderhorst from the Canary Party. I suspect that protest letter was written by the brain trust from the National Canary Party, whose "Chairman" is Mark Blaxill (also the Editor-at-Large at Age of Autism:

http://www.canaryparty.org/index.php/people

I'm feeling very satisfied with myself, for nailing down the same points that Mr. Deer has on his website.

ASD Researcher

"I'm feeling very satisfied with myself..."

Except the narrative doesn't quite fit ...

How old was patient zero ?

When was Andrew Wakefield's supposed first visit to Minneapolis ?

At what age is MMR recommended ?

What alternative vaccine has Andy Wakefield recommended ?

What was the infectious disease the child suffered ?

What are the significant cultural differences that may offer an alternative to the skeptic narrative ?

Why did health authorities allow a measles case into the mainland USA ?

Why did health authorities not quarantine patient zero ?

What is the effect of bringing a child with a highly infectious disease to a public clinic ?

---------------------------------------------

Sometimes government and health authorities need to take responsibility for their actions or lack of actions.

Blaming Andrew Wakefield is neither productive for infectious disease outbreaks does not mean that you do not instigate stronger health protocols and work harder to engage with communities especially one's with dynamic social , language and economic factors.

That skeptics have dumbed down this debate into "Blame Andy" shows a particularly shallow intellectual and scientific response to a health concern that can be addressed by more objective and reasoned debate.

Obviously some of us are operating at much higher level.

lilady

Why did health authorities not quarantine patient zero ?

Yuck yuck, clueless (Not An) ASD Researcher...and definitely not an epidemiologist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_case

Try again, clueless (Not An) ASD Researcher and (Not An) epidemiologist!

ASD Researcher

Oh look Lilady forgot to answer the other half dozen questions ... nor do I get infectious disease protocols from wiki ...

Dyson

Wait for it..... antivax distraction coming right up.....

lilady

"Blaming Andrew Wakefield is neither productive for infectious disease outbreaks does not mean that you do not instigate stronger health protocols and work harder to engage with communities especially one's with dynamic social , language and economic factors."

He targeted the Somali community in Minneapolis. His super-secret "Autism Strategic Initiative" funded the three (possible more) trips to Minneapolis. He ducked reporters questions, when they located him in Minneapolis, in the middle of a measles outbreak. Odd, isn't it, that this publicity hound disgraced former doctor, avoided reporters and refused to speak to them?

All of your silly questions about the measles outbreak, were answered with the MMWR citation/link I provided to you (twice) and with the CDC Case Surveillance Manual-Measles that I cited and linked.

You really are as thick as a plank (Not An) ASD Researcher.

ASD Researcher

Use your own words to answer the questions lilady. The more you obsfucate the deeper and darker the abyss.

How old was patient zero ?

When was Andrew Wakefield's supposed first visit to Minneapolis ?

At what age is MMR recommended ?

What alternative vaccine has Andy Wakefield recommended ?

What was the infectious disease the child suffered ?

What are the significant cultural differences that may offer an alternative to the skeptic narrative ?

Dyson

Lilady, forgive him.

He has Nelson's eye syndrome. He cannot change.

lilady

Give it up (Not An) ASD Researcher...I've answered your questions...you've been busted as the anti-vaccine spamming troll that you are.

lilady

Still spamming (Not An) ASD Researcher?

ASD Researcher

Answer the questions.

Dyson

It might be pertinent if (not) "an ASD researcher's" "questions" bore any semblance of relevance, but since they don't, why bother.
Distraction. Another antivax propaganda tactic.

ASD Researcher

How old was patient zero ?

Dyson

30 months. What of it? Measles has to be imported by someone, doesn't it in a country where it is not endemic. of course, when a doctor has persuaded the community to forgo vaccination, then there is no herd immunity, and when an index case emerges, they are vulnerable and measles spreads. Wouldn't matter if patient zero was 30 years old - same result.

Simple stuff really, epidemiology 101.
You might imagine anyone with common sense could work this out, even someone whose only admitted expertise as an "ASD researcher" has come from Google Uni.

ASD Researcher

Epidemiology 101 - It ain't rocket science - The facts don't fit the narrative.

How old was patient zero ?

When was Andrew Wakefield's supposed first visit to Minneapolis ?

At what age is MMR recommended ?

What alternative vaccine has Andy Wakefield recommended ?

What was the infectious disease the child suffered ?

What are the significant cultural differences that may offer an alternative to the skeptic narrative ?

Why did health authorities allow a measles case into the mainland USA ?

Why did health authorities not quarantine patient zero ?

What is the effect of bringing a child with a highly infectious disease to a public clinic ?

ASD Researcher

ummm ...that does not seem to reflect events in the real world.

Taylor

I see that Brian Deer has posted an item at his website which seems to reply pretty much to everything here. Well done Mr Deer (but it took you long enough!)

http://briandeer.com/solved/vanderhorst-larson.htm

lilady

(Not An) ASD Researcher:

And I'll remember, my childhood friend who died from polio, just before the Salk vaccine was developed and available.

I'll remember my older cousin was infected with measles, before the measles vaccine was developed and available. Measles encephalitis left him with lifelong neurological deficits.

I'll remember all the children who died from invasive H. Influenzae, Meningoccal and S. Pneumoniae bacteremia, before those vaccines were developed and developed.

You're just an ignorant spamming anti-vaccine troll, (Not An) ASD Researcher.

ASD Researcher

It's not about you lilady ...

Dyson

That's her point. In case you missed it:
"I'll remember all the children who died from invasive H. Influenzae, Meningoccal and S. Pneumoniae bacteremia, before those vaccines were developed and developed."

You display a worrying lack of awareness and empathy. But then we have come to expect this as routine from those who are against vaccines.

ASD Researcher

How did you deduce that Sherlock ?

ASD Researcher

Oh well the debate has come to an end ... the skeptic blogopshere certainly didn't like that , to use a crude expression, 'kick in the guts' it received when the Justice Mitting read out the quashing of all charges against one Senior author of the Lancet paper and eminent paediatric gastroenterologist Professor john Walker-Smith.

Some of the "skeptic glitterati" placed what credibility they had on the line ... hoping those charges would stick. They didn't the, UK High Court dismissed them in just 5 grey and overcast days, that was in stark contrast to the cheers , smiles and congratulations of the large gathering of family , friends , media and supporters.

The momentum has changed significantly in this debate ... every detail of the skeptic narrative now needs to be checked , rechecked and examined against actual physical evidence, preferably under the objective eyes of the judiciary.

Somewhere there is a "truth" ... something quite ordinary - kids get sick, sometimes they are used as political footballs ... some professionals stand above that ... that's what they do. They seek a 'truth' where ever that may lead ... Andy Wakefield's own hypothesis surrounding MMR intersection could be completely wrong , but the real evidence of immunology , physiology and neurology says something happens to those children and their immune response , something happens to their GI tract , something intersects to create 'regression ... skeptics can offer no plausible biological reason why these events and evidence exist. They prefer to do the ostrich ...

Some have forgotten ...

It's a pity I'll remember the children most.

Dyson

I'll remember how several generations of kids were failed by the needless distraction of one man's warped obsession with personal status and egotism that diverted the research agenda into autism nearly irreparably, and has left a trail of dead and autistic kids in his wake.

lilady

Here's the list of studies from PubMed (all 324 studies), that have totally disproved Andy's theory of autism being linked with the MMR vaccine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=19952979

ASD Researcher

You don't seem to understand that this debate is not evaluated on whether Andy Wakefield's hypothesis is correct or not.

That vaccines intersect with autism genetic risk has already been shown.

Next is whether vaccines intersect with the gastrointestinal system...microbiome that has a relationship with regression in autism.

Dyson

Thanks Lilady - nice list of the current science. Shame some here are determined to ignore it, while pretending to be objective on the issue. The science also looks at genetics and gastrointestinal issues in autism. One thing is clear - vaccine has nothing to do with them.
But let's hear it from the guy who pretends he is an "ASD researcher" when he is not, and has admitted as much: Wait for him to say something irrelevant like "Microbiome!!"

ASD Researcher

Will you ... but then that's the shallow type of thinking we have all become accustomed to.

Dyson

I know you are accustomed to shallow thinking.
All of us can see that.

Clueless, as usual.

ASD Researcher

Response to feature Wakefield’s "autistic enterocolitis" under the microscope from ESPGHAN

We, the President of the European Society of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition (ESPGHAN) and the Editor of the Journal of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition (JPGN-Europe) were concerned to see the publication of the recent feature on ‘Autistic enterocolitis’ written by the journalist Brian Deer in the BMJ on 15 April (BMJ 2010; 340:c 838).

The article presents Brian Deer’s summary of the process and interpretation of the gut pathology in the retracted Lancet paper (Lancet 1998; 351:637-41). It clearly states his competing interest in the Sunday Times investigation which led to the current GMC hearing of three of the authors, and the subsequent retraction of the paper.

The accompanying editorial by Professor Sir Nick Wright (BMJ 2010; 340: c 1807) puts the complexity of pathological interpretation in both clinical and research situations, including the process in the Lancet paper, in proper context. He states that the editorial was commissioned and there was no external peer review.

We were concerned about the provenance of Brian Deer’s article as it quotes from the recent GMC hearing for which no transcripts have yet been released. Furthermore no information was provided on the peer review process at the time of publication.

Nevertheless, we are surprised that such a respected scientific journal as the BMJ would accept and publish such a sensitive paper while the researchers in question are being examined by the GMC.

Moreover, we feel that publishing this article, by a journalist with a declared interest in the GMC case, just prior to the final judgment by the GMC of the researchers involved is both unjust and inappropriate.

Competing interests: None declared

---------------------------------------

Memories ... sometimes Jungian.

Was this an example of Medico-political manipulation of a quasi-judicial committe ?

Who did pay for all the costs of the GMC tribunal ? £7 million extraordinary.

Who paid for the witnesses ? Surely not the GMC a registered charitable organisation.

Questions ....questions that any member of the public is entitled to ask.

Why did the British Medical Journal have to place not one but three Conflict of Interest Statements in regards to the series of allegations made against Andy Wakefield ?

What other back stories haven't we heard ?

Dig deep ...ask questions.

ASD Researcher

FYI - British Medical Journal

The BMJ should have declared competing interests in relation to this editorial by Fiona Godlee and colleagues (BMJ 2011;342:c7452, doi:10.1136/bmj.c7452). The BMJ Group receives advertising and sponsorship revenue from vaccine manufacturers, and specifically from Merck and GSK, which both manufacture MMR vaccines. ...... The same omission also affected two related Editor’s Choice articles (BMJ 2011;342:d22 and BMJ 2011;342:d378).

lilady

Dear lord. Isn't there any way to stop the (Not An) ASD Researcher's Spamming walls of words?

lookinglass

I do hope not Lilady. You sound a trifle miffed. Surely not you. The Queen of ad hom and spam....getting a wee bit worn out. off to bed with you ...sleep well.

Dyson

Seeing them quibble about "competing interests", when they support Wakefield.... Its not even the pot calling the kettle black, its the pot calling the sugar cube black.

ASD Researcher

http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/02/response-feature-wakefield%E2%80%99s-autistic-enterocolitis-under-microscope-espgh

Andrew King

A previous poster said: "Students of journalism should search the name "Brian Deer" with terms such as "BMJ," "Nuki," and "Merck" and "GlaxoSmithKline."

I did a Google search with "Brian Deer" and "Merck", and came up with articles on Deer's investigative reporting that slammed Vioxx, a Merck product.

So if the above poster is trying to suggest Deer is a pharma shill, he has failed miserably (Deer has also written articles criticizing other Big Pharma drugs, including Bactrim).

Antivaxers who want to draw attention to conflicts of interest should instead focus on Andrew Wakefield, who concealed his huge payments from a lawyers' group, and also tried to patent a vaccine to compete with the MMR, which his "research" falsely implicated as being associated with autism.

lilady

I've read all of Brian Deer's articles including the ones where he went up against *Big Pharm* in the U.K. He's definitely not in the pocket of these drug manufacturers.

How about this article, where Deer pushed for services and funding for disabled kids, Andrew?

http://briandeer.com/social/disability-law.htm

ASD Researcher

Those were the halcyon days ... social justice issues on disability.

Apparently it still continues, disabled children seeking treatment for severe medical conditions that devalue the quality of life for both child and carer.

Dyson

One (not so) amusing consequence of the Wakefield MMR saga was the discovery that he had set up 2 biotechnology companies in order to specifically exploit the increasing concerns about MMR-bowel damage - concern he had specifically engendered.

Essentially, he was setting out his stall to be a BigPharma clone, and rake in what he had predicted would be several million dollars in revenue from exploiting the worries of parents of autistic kids.

Disgusting.
But all perfectly OK in the eyes of the antivax propagandists from AoA and other sites.

lilady

Dyson: Ironic, isn't it...that we as licensed health care professionals have been labeled as *pharma shills*.

Here's Wakefield's patent application to develop and market a single antigen measles vaccine...his so-called "transfer factor".

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/vaccine-patent.htm

Disgusting.


ASD Researcher

You have to love the way the skeptic blogosphere can hold two distinct constructs in their heads at the same time , both operating to undo the other.

Here is one such occasion of cognitive dissonance.

1. They narrative goes - Wakefield invented a vaccine (because it has vaccine written in the literature) and was going to make mega bucks.

2. The other argument is Transfer Factor is useless , old technology.

Of course further confounding the flow ... is that

1. Big Pharma was involved in exploiting any treatments regimes coming out of Wakefield's Crohn's research

2. So was University College London that actually held all the patent rights.

Makes sense .... lol.

Dyson

What's funny is that Wakefield, knowing precious little about immunology, hadn't a clue that transfer factor was useless, despite the surfeit of evidence available in the current literature.

Dazed by the dollar signs before his eyes, he snatched the biro from his lawyer's slimey grasp and asked: "Where do I sign?!"

ASD Researcher

I don't suppose we'll be seeing any documentation Dyson ? Or any back story that may interfere with the flow of your narrative ?

Dyson

Full documentation and references to be found here:
http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5258

ASD Researcher

Dyson -

Full documentation and references to be found here:
http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5258

Like real documents with dates , names etc etc ... for instance it says here ...

Reference 9

Barr R, Barr A. The Which? way to buy, sell and move house. Consumers’ Association. 1993.

No link to document.

Reference 11

Both Mrs 2 and JABS separately confirmed this to Deer.

What ? That's not an acceptable reference in a journal.

Reference 14

Barr R, Wakefield A. Proposed protocol and costing proposals for testing a selected number of MR and MMR vaccinated children, and attached technical specification. Submitted to the Legal Aid Board, 6 June 1996.

Not verifiable by link.

Reference 15

Inventor/school/investor meeting 1. 4 September 1996.

Not acceptable in academic journal

Reference 16

Diagnosing Crohn’s disease or ulcerative colitis by detection of measles virus. UK patent application 2 300 259 A. UK Patent Office. Priority date 28 March 1995. Publication date 30 October 1996.

No link to full document.

Reference 19

Legal Aid Board. Authority to do contract work. 22 August 1996.

No link to document.

Reference 20

Arie Zuckerman. Letter to EM Armstrong. 11 October 1996.

No direct link to document.

... and on and on .... uncheckable documents.

Dyson

Don't forget Deer went after Glaxo Smith Kline too - regarding the problems with cotrimoxazole.

http://briandeer.com/bactrim-septra.htm
Published in the Sunday Times........

.....hang on, isn't the Sunday Times meant to be in the pocket of GSK?? All the antivaxers like to point out that James Murdoch was on their board, therefore we can't believe a word of what Deer says...
Oh well, it makes for a useful conspiracy story to spin whenever it suits the propagandists from Age of Autism.

lilady

Oh, how they *spin* their conspiracy theories at Age of Autism.

I need a scorecard whenever their "Six, Sixty, Six Hundred Degrees of Separation" cub reporter blogs

ASD Researcher

"Don't forget Deer went after Glaxo Smith Kline..."

Well done Dyson ... wouldn't want to think he only went after one Big Pharma ?

ASD Researcher

So should we think as Brian as 'pharma shill" ?

I don't think so ... there's certainly a complex back story that suggests otherwise.
You just have to look.

ASD Researcher

Indeed there is an interesting journalistic history ...

Did you read the full article at ... about DPT Vaccine.

briandeer.com/dtp-dpt-vaccine-3.htm

last couple of paragraphs are colorful ?

The High Court ruled again and the science now informs us of genetically at risk children and the intersection of vaccines.

Dyson

What is interesting is how the 2 protagonists (Deer and Wakefield) square up in terms of their conflicts of interest. Deer has spared no mercy in ripping Pharma a new intestinal exit, as he widely publicized articles have indicated. Presumably all he stood to gain was his fee as a freelance journalist submitting copy to newspapers.

As for Wakefield, aside from his $750,000 legal aid payments for doing very little, and the "vaccine" patented for therapeutic use, he was trying to develop his own diagnostic assay for Measles-damaged-bowel, estimating this could potentially earn $72million a year in commercial applications.

He was also involved with BigPharma, including Axcan, Merck and Smith Kline Beecham (soon to merge with Glaxo Wellcome), and was negotiating consultancies with Johnson and Johnson.

To eventually find himself reduced to talking to a few dozen acolytes in front of a shed in a public park, while handing round a metaphorical begging bowl for alms, unable to even afford a decent haircut.... Oh how the mighty have fallen.

lilady

"To eventually find himself reduced to talking to a few dozen acolytes in front of a shed in a public park, while handing round a metaphorical begging bowl for alms, unable to even afford a decent haircut.... Oh how the mighty have fallen."

Most of those "few dozen acolytes" were young guys who were partying in the park...part of the "Octoberfest" festival that was taking place, at the time of Andy's *press conference in front of the gun shelter in a public part*.

I got *zapped* for a prior comment...so let me re-phrase it....

I've been labeled as *Big Pharma Shill* and labeled as a *Big Pharma (Lady-Of-The-Night)*, by the anti-vaccine crowd at AoA, for posting on this blog and other science blogs.

ASD Researcher

That was an interesting quote didn't see it from any mainstream news organization. Any reason for that ?

ASD Researcher

"The irony is strong in this one ...."

"He was also involved with BigPharma, including Axcan, Merck and Smith Kline Beecham (soon to merge with Glaxo Wellcome), and was negotiating consultancies with Johnson and Johnson."

lilady

""He was also involved with BigPharma, including Axcan, Merck and Smith Kline Beecham (soon to merge with Glaxo Wellcome), and was negotiating consultancies with Johnson and Johnson."

"That was an interesting quote didn't see it from any mainstream news organization. Any reason for that ?"

(Not An) ASD Researcher; unlike you and your inane off-topic multiple copy pasta spamming, Dyson DID NOT lift that "quote" from any mainstream news organization.

lilady

To add to my comments about Wakefield's involvement in the 2011 measles outbreak in Minneapolis, here is a science blog about Andy's *super-secret* Autism Strategic Initiative...and my comment about the *Somali Project in Mineapolis*...

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2012/03/15/financials-for-andrew-wakefields-strategic-autism-initiative/#comments

"lilady March 15, 2012 at 19:23 #

“They had three research projects listed. Two seem to be the same—the “Somali project”. They have someone in the UK and someone in Minnesota. They spent about $30k on this project, which is supposed to include prevalence studies in Somalia.”

Would this be the “someone” involved with the “Somali Project” in Minnesota?:

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/04/02/somali-autism-vaccines/

Here’s a 3 minute video from Fox Television. Toward the end of the video you will hear the name “Handley” mentioned:

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/news/autism-fraud-wakefield-mn-somali-community-jan-6-2011

ASD Researcher

You haven't quiet worked out those dates yet have you ... or have you ?

Perchance employing dodge and distraction ?

lilady

Oh I worked out those dates...you're just posting aimless remarks and refuse to read the several posts about Wakefield's 3 visits (that are documented) to meet with Somali parents...to deter them from having their kids get MMR vaccines...2 visits before the Minneapolis measles outbreak and 1 visit in the midst of the measles outbreak.

My latest post above provides documentation about Andy's super-secret "Autism Strategic Initiative", its funding "source" and the money spent for his foray into Minneapolis to speak with Somali parents.

The man is a public health menace...(Not An) ASD Researcher.

ASD Researcher

Here's a few questions to clarify your story line -

What was the immigration status of patient zero ?

What was the vaccination policy in Somalia or refugee camps ?

What is WHO protocols for infectious diseases in these types of situations ?

What cultural beliefs may effect vaccination protocols in Somalia ?

What level of English Language did the family have and was translated documentation and health policies available ?

What access to Somalian speaking health authorities was provided ?

How old was the child ?

Why did the child not receive vaccination and other health checks prior to his immigration to the United States ?

What contact if any did the child have with Andrew Wakefield ?

How long had that family lived in Minnesota ?

Why did local health authorities not review his vaccination status ?

Why did local health authorities allow a child with suspected measles attend a public clinic thus not instigating isolation protocols ?

Why wasn't an alternative measles vaccine offered or given ?

Has there been any outbreaks of rubella or mumps ?


lilady

The investigation was completed by the Hennepin County (Minneapolis), Minnesota Health Departments and the CDC, (Not An) ASD Researcher, following the strict CDC Case Surveillance-Measles criteria:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.pdf

(Not An) ASD Researcher...some of your questions could be answered if you queried the Hennepin County Health Department under the FOIL (Freedom of Information Law). Other questions, such as the age of the *index case*, will not be answered, in order to protect the identity of that child...but, you would not know that, because you really aren't an "ASD Researcher" and you are clueless how an outbreak of measles...or any vaccine-preventable-disease is investigated by clinicians/epidemiologists.

lilady, BSc-Nursing, Registered Nurse, Public Health Nurse/Epidemiologist

ASD Researcher

Sorry lilady I'm asking you ... put your the evidence that backs up your narrative on the table.

This was a strange and hyperbolic response ...

"Other questions, such as the age of the *index case*, will not be answered, in order to protect the identity of that child."

Didn't you read your own evidence ?

"The investigation determined that the index patient was a U.S.-born child of Somali descent, aged 30 months, who developed a rash February 15, 14 days after returning from a trip to Kenya. The patient attended a drop-in child care center 1 day before rash onset; measles developed in three contacts at the center and in one household contact. Secondary and tertiary exposures occurred in two congregate living facilities for homeless persons (four patients), an emergency department (two patients), and households (two patients). A virus isolate from the index patient was genotyped at CDC as B3, which is endemic in sub-Saharan Africa."

ASD Researcher

...and a sprinkle of fairy dust and the skeptic narrative changes.

...and look at the lack of documentation

ASD Researcher

Of course for this remarkable narrative to exist it takes the complicit agreement and involvement of the University College London, who held all the intellectual property rights and actually on the documentation there name is clearly seen at the head of title.

http://www.bmj.com/highwire/filestream/402391/field_highwire_fragment_image_l/0.jpg

One in all in ... I say.

Dyson

Nose pickings. Enjoy.

Dyson

No, for this narrative to exist it required one massive ego, replete with Dunning Kruger, and a windswept Myrick park.

ASD Researcher

Brian who ?

Dyson

I know the entire antivax lobby would like to have a collective memory dump about him, but he ain't going away any time soon.

Twyla

An excellent article today about John Walker-Smith's new book:

Enduring Memories: Prof John Walker-Smith recalls his life and the Wakefield affair.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/10/enduring-memories-prof-john-walker-smith-recalls-his-life-and-the-wakefield-affair.html

lilady

This blog has absolutely nothing to do with John Walker-Smith, Twyla.

There.Is.No.Debate.Period.

ASD Researcher

There should be a period debate.

Over to Merton ... for a discourse in aesethetics.

Dyson

Fantastic Mellissa and Doug magic set - rave reviews on Amazon!
And even more pertinent than Walker Smith!
http://www.amazon.com/Melissa-Doug-Deluxe-Magic-Set/dp/B0001YNLLK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350337513&sr=8-1&keywords=magic

lilady

Dyson: LOL...I prefer this *magic set*. Much more fun to have a magician's hat with a rabbit...for those who have been swallowed up down that rabbit hole...and for those who pull their science *factoids* out of that rabbit hole.

http://www.amazon.com/Kids-Magician-Hat-w-Rabbit/dp/B000034DKZ/ref=pd_sim_t_1

ASD Researcher

The power of search engines ... http://beforeitsnews.com/9-11-and-ground-zero/2012/10/911-illusions-special-effects-and-other-magic-tricks-2439028.html

ciaparker

The vaccine/autism question should absolutely have been debated at Deer's lecture. It is beyond doubt that vaccines are the major cause of autism. My baby reacted with encephalitis to the hep-B vax at birth, screaming inconsolably for four days and nights. She got the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months, but caught pertussis anyway at a La Leche League meeting at 8 months old, and gave it to me. But the disease is very rarely dangerous after five months old, and we both recovered completely, and now enjoy permanent immunity. When my daughter got the DTaP booster at 18 months old, it erased her only two words, uh for up and uff for dog, and she didn't say another word until 34 months old. She had been diagnosed with autism at 20 months old. I refused the MMR and varicella vaccines for her, and so do not know how much worse she would have been had she gotten them. I had measles when I was six, and remember a time when all children got it and no one was afraid of it.

Drs. Wakefield, Walker-Smith, Murch, and others, pointed out what they had observed, that the children of the Lancet Twelve had developed bowel disease and about half of them autism as well within a short time of having gotten the MMR. They said it was strange, and should be investigated further. That was all. But it was enough for Big Pharma to mobilize against them several years after the article was approved and published, and it hired Brian Deer to discredit Wakefield and his colleagues. In March, Judge Mitting exonerated Drs. Walker-Smith and Murch of any wrongdoing, saying there was no fraud, and that the GMC had behaved culpably, using shallow reasoning to reach false conclusions. Dr. Wakefield was unable to participate in that lawsuit because his insurance wouldn't pay for it.

Hundreds of thousands of Amercian children have regressed into bowel disease and autism within days or weeks of the MMR. It has never had the mercury that did so much damage to my daughter and to me. But it is still a devastatingly dangerous vaccine, and measles vaccine strain virus has been found in the intestines, brain, and/or spinal fluid of many of the autistic children who regressed after the MMR, but not in those of healthy children who also got the MMR, but did not regress.

There are a lot of topics involved with vaccines and autism that are eminently worthy of debate, and trying to shut down debate preemptively seems like an attempt to shelter vaccine profits.

lilady

@ CIA Parker:

Which doctor diagnosed your newborn child with encephalitis...or did you make the "diagnosis"?

Was your newborn treated in a pediatric intensive care unit of a hospital?

Here are the IDSA (Infectious Disease Society of America) diagnostic criteria for encephalitis and the recommended treatment guidelines for the disorder:

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/3/303.full

Dyson

Whatever Cia's infant had after Hep B vaccine, it wasn't post vaccination encephalitis. This can occur very rarely (0.1 per 100,000 vaccinations) but relies on the subject developing an abnormal immune response to the vaccine, which by definition takes around a week to manifest.

Cia's infant crying for 4 days after birth doesn't sound like it is suggestive of anything, other than a reaction to the effects of being born.

http://home.smh.com/sections/services-procedures/medlib/Pandemic/Pan_Geriatrics/PanGer_73_Huynh_050309.pdf

But in the bizzaro antivax world, every phenomenon that follows a vaccine is pumped up as some severe reaction; so crying is encephalitis; a sore arm is multiple sclerosis; feeling faint is epilepsy... you get the drift.

Merton

"It is beyond doubt that vaccines are the major cause of autism."

Perhaps in the tightly controlled atmosphere of your favored echo chamber, Ms. Parker, but that's not the way the real world works.

lilady

They've put the word out on AoA to come posting here, Merton.

I'm still waiting for CIA Parker to explain why she made the diagnosis of "vaccine-induced encephalitis" for her newborn child.

Dyson

and why she never called a doctor to see her infant.

lilady

CIA Parker doesn't need no stinkin' doctors to diagnose her infant's *vaccine-induced encephalitis*, Dyson. She has her *expertise* in pediatric neurology and pediatric infectious diseases.

Dyson

I don't think anyone seems to recognize the narrative you describe, Cia.
Have you been exclusively drinking AoA koolaid?

ASD Researcher

I think that was the point of the Lancet paper ?

Oh well some people miss the obvious ..

We describe a pattern of colitis and ileal-lymphoid- nodular hyperplasia in children with developmental disorders. Intestinal and behavioural pathologies may have occurred together by chance, reflecting a selection bias in a self-referred group; however, the uniformity of the intestinal pathological changes and the fact that previous studies have found intestinal dysfunction in children with autistic-spectrum disorders, suggests that the connection is real and reflects a unique disease process.

Dyson

So unique that nobody else has ever found it, despite looking exhaustively.

lilady

Here you are (Not An) ASD Rresearcher: My Comment along with two links that I posted 14 hours ago. It provides that back story of Wakefield's activities just before and during the Minneapolis measles outbreak in 2011.


Are you that consumed in posting your Spam that you miss other posters comments?

Walker-Smith was not the one who traveled to Minneapolis three times to meet with Somali parents to deter them from having their children vaccinated with the MMR vaccine:

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/118547569.html?refer=y

Walker-Smith was not the one whose secret meetings with Somali parents, caused the 2011 outbreak of measles in Minneapolis:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6013a6.htm

"Notes from the Field: Measles Outbreak --- Hennepin County, Minnesota, February--March 2011
Weekly
April 8, 2011 / 60(13);421

On March 2, 2011, the Minnesota Department of Health (MDH) confirmed measles in a Hennepin County resident aged 9 months. As of April 1, investigation of contacts and heightened surveillance had revealed a total of 13 epidemiologically linked cases in Hennepin County residents. Of those cases, 11 were laboratory confirmed, and two were in household contacts of confirmed cases and met the clinical case definition for measles.

The patients included children aged 4 months--4 years and one adult aged 51 years; seven of the 13 were of Somali decent. Eight patients were hospitalized. Vaccination status was known for 11 patients: five were too young to have been vaccinated, and six (all of Somali descent) had not been vaccinated because of parental concerns about the safety of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine. The most recent rash onset was March 28. An additional, unrelated case of measles was confirmed in a Hennepin County resident aged 34 years who was exposed in Orlando, Florida, sometime during March 1--10.

The investigation determined that the index patient was a U.S.-born child of Somali descent, aged 30 months, who developed a rash February 15, 14 days after returning from a trip to Kenya. The patient attended a drop-in child care center 1 day before rash onset; measles developed in three contacts at the center and in one household contact. Secondary and tertiary exposures occurred in two congregate living facilities for homeless persons (four patients), an emergency department (two patients), and households (two patients). A virus isolate from the index patient was genotyped at CDC as B3, which is endemic in sub-Saharan Africa."

The disgraced and delicensed medical doctor Andrew Wakefield is a public health menace.

ASD Researcher

So how's the dates going .... ? Notice anything at first glance that may lead us down a differing narrative ?

lilady

Why do you tell us about a different narrative, (Not An) ASD Researcher)

From my link to the Star Tribune:

"Patti Carroll, an organizer of Wednesday's meeting at the Safari restaurant, said that Wakefield is helping to build support for a study about rising autism rates in the Somali community. She said this is his third visit to Minnesota since December. Wakefield, who was stripped of his medical license in Britain for scientific misconduct, continues to defend his research."

ASD Researcher

Look beyond that date ? Slowly slowly down the garden path ....

ASD Researcher

reply to lilady

"Why don't you comment on Wakefield's activities in Minneapolis and the two links I provided about the measles outbreak in 2011?"

OK ... first question what are the dates of the two articles ?

lilady

Here's another thread about do-it-yourself fecal transplants. Notice how many of the posters are parents of autistic children who are seeking *recovery* of their autistic children and take their kids to quack doctors for fecal transplants:

http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22869&start=0

ASD Researcher

...and look how many are not. Gee is the fecal transplant conspiracy...?

Jenny Allan

Lilady-Your above comments about faecal transplants are ill informed and potentially even harmful, given your 'quack doctors' comment, which could discourage persons from benefitting from this respected medical therapy. As a 'survivor' of that potentially fatal condition Clostridium difficile, I would have welcomed the chance to undergo this therapy which is designed to restore a balanced gut 'flora' to a colon which has been depleted due to the administration of antibiotics.This was not then available in the UK. From Wikipedia:-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy
"Fecal (faecal) microbiota transplantation (FMT) is the process of transplantation of fecal bacteria from a healthy individual into a recipient as a treatment for patients suffering from Clostridium difficile infection (CDI), which produces effects ranging from diarrhea to pseudomembranous colitis. Previous terms for the procedure include fecal bacteriotherapy, fecal transfusion, fecal transplant, stool transplant, fecal enema and human probiotic infusion (HPI). FMT involves restoration of the colonic flora by introducing healthy bacterial flora through infusion of stool, e.g. by enema, obtained from a healthy human donor. It can also be used to treat other conditions, including colitis,[3] constipation,[3] irritable bowel syndrome,[3] and some neurological conditions".

lilady

Jenny Allan:

Shooting off your mouth without reading my prior comment about do-it-yourself fecal transplants by *Thinking Moms* who experiment on their autistic kids, eh?

Here from my comment 8 hours ago and the link I provided

Yup, some of these anti-vaccine *Thinking Mom* loons are collecting their own feces in a bucket for a do-it-yourself fecal transplant experiment on their autistic kids to *recover* them.

"Fecal transplants have been used with some success on patients who are desperately ill with recurrent C.difficile infections:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-species-in-the-feces/

Haven't you any comment about the parents of autistic kids who experiment on their kids to *recover them* by do-it-yourself fecal transplants, or who go to quack DAN! doctors for this autism treatment?

Jenny Allan

Lilady-My objection was to your statement about parents who 'take their kids to quack doctors for fecal transplants'. Most persons would automatically assume from this that all doctors who carry out or refer patients to faecal transplant therapy are quacks.

I have no personal opinion about parents allegedly performing this therapy themselves, since I have no reliable evidence of this and do not instantly believe everything I read in comment threads

lilady

@ Jenny Allan:

"I have no personal opinion about parents allegedly performing this therapy themselves, since I have no reliable evidence of this and do not instantly believe everything I read in comment threads."

You are a frequent poster on AoA where you posted on your episode of C. difficile overgrowth infection. Several other posters there posted back at you. They have commented and inquired about fecal transplants for *treatment* of their autistic children. You NEVER posted back at them to discourage them from these *treatments*

How disingenuous of you, Jenny.


Here you go Jenny. Thomas Borody was a featured speaker at the 2012 Autism One Conference:

http://www.autismone.org/conference_speakers?page=0%2C1

Thomas Borody, MD, PhD, FRACP, FACP, FACG, AGAF
Presentation 1 - GI Microbiota and Regressive Autism

Gut microbiota had been implicated in regressive autism from vancomycin treatment studies. There is a higher prevalence of abnormal bowel function in autistic children and the non-absorbable vancomycin significantly changes behavior. Presumably, suppressing the culprit bacteria results in improvement. This opens the door to treatment not only with antibiotics, but also with probiotics active against the pathogens, including various forms of fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT).
Date/Time: Sat, 05/26/2012 - 1:30pm - 2:30pm
Room: Grand FGHIJ
Tracks: Conference 2012, Gut - Gastrointestinal
Biography
Prof. Borody is the founder (in 1984) and current Medical Director of the Centre of Digestive Diseases in Sydney, Australia. He has published over 220 scientific papers and was a clinical fellow in Gastroenterology at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN. His research has contributed to antibiotic treatment for Helicobacter pylori in Ulcer Disease and he has continued research into Crohn’s Disease, IBS, and disorders of the human bowel flora. He's championed Faecal Microbiota Transplantation (FMT).

Jenny Allan

Lilady accuses me of not responding to questions from parents" about fecal transplants for *treatment* of their autistic children". This was about a comment I made on the Age of Autism site about my own C diff case. (Lilady seems to think she has a God given right to 'police' other web sites!!)

I don't remember any specific AoA questions addressed to me about faecal transplants as a treatment for autism, but in any case, I would not presume to 'advise' any person about matters of which I know very little, and I would certainly NEVER advocate any DIY treatments. New research seems to indicate the beneficial effects of probiotics on ASD children, but I have no knowledge at all about the benefits of faecal transplants on these children. Wikipedia mentions the use of FT's on "colitis,[3] constipation,[3] irritable bowel syndrome,[3] and some neurological conditions", and it is now recognised that a large percentage of ASD children also have these bowel and other conditions.

Tom Borody is a 'hero' in C diff circles and I am delighted to hear his therapies are now being used to help autistic children. Thank you very much for supplying me with this information.

lilady

"Lilady accuses me of not responding to questions from parents" about fecal transplants for *treatment* of their autistic children". This was about a comment I made on the Age of Autism site about my own C diff case. (Lilady seems to think she has a God given right to 'police' other web sites!!)"

That's how the internet *works* Jenny!!!!!!

"Tom Borody is a 'hero' in C diff circles and I am delighted to hear his therapies are now being used to help autistic children. Thank you very much for supplying me with this information."

He's no hero...when he is a featured speaker at Jenny's Quackfest.

The autistic children that *he helps* do not have recurrent C. diff infections. They are not treated in a hospital; they are being *treated* by quacks or by their parents who use their autistic kids for their do-it-yourself fecal transplants in an effort to *recover* their children from autism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22002980

Clin Infect Dis. 2011 Nov;53(10):994-1002.
Systematic review of intestinal microbiota transplantation (fecal bacteriotherapy) for recurrent Clostridium difficile infection.
Gough E, Shaikh H, Manges AR.
Source

Department of Epidemiology Biostatistics and Occupational Health, McGill University, 1020 Pine Avenue West, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
Abstract

Clostridium difficile infection (CDI) is a gastrointestinal disease believed to be causally related to perturbations to the intestinal microbiota. When standard treatment has failed, intestinal microbiota transplantation (IMT) is an alternative therapy for patients with CDI. IMT involves infusing intestinal microorganisms (in a suspension of healthy donor stool) into the intestine of a sick patient to restore the microbiota. However, protocols and reported efficacy for IMT vary. We conducted a systematic literature review of IMT treatment for recurrent CDI and pseudomembranous colitis. In 317 patients treated across 27 case series and reports, IMT was highly effective, showing disease resolution in 92% of cases. Effectiveness varied by route of instillation, relationship to stool donor, volume of IMT given, and treatment before infusion. Death and adverse events were uncommon. These findings can guide physicians interested in implementing the procedure until better designed studies are conducted to confirm best practices.

PMID:
22002980
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

ASD Researcher

So mainstream journals just ran major special editions on the human microbiome and CalTech is doing some great animal model studies on stem cells ... all related to the Lancet 12 paper.

National Institute of Health Director's Post - August

The strangest discovery of the summer may be the report of bone marrow transplants resolving the symptoms of autism…in mice. Paul Patterson and his colleagues at California Institute of Technology created an autism-like syndrome in mice by exposing them to immune challenges during mid-gestation.

3 Once grown up, these prenatally exposed mice showed immune changes but also increased anxiety, decreased social behavior, and repetitive behaviors.

A bone marrow transplant, which replaces the immune system, corrected both the immune response and the behavior. This finding, which was unexpected, is surprisingly similar to another recent paper reporting disappearance of the symptoms of Rett syndrome in mice following a bone marrow transplant.4 Both studies suggest that abnormalities of the immune system may underlie some of the symptoms of these neurodevelopmental disorders.

But for me the most disorienting discovery of the summer came from the score of papers in July and August on the microbiome. In the same way that cognitive psychology has redefined how we think about our minds, the microbiome must now redefine how we think about our bodies.

Actually the term “our bodies” is no longer accurate. Only 10 percent of our bodies’ genetic material checks out as human DNA: some 90 percent belongs to the trillions of microbes that live on and inside us. If all the cells in our bodies were to take a vote, human cells lose. The reports from the last month begin to map the biogeography of the human body, revealing that we are really a complex ecosystem with regional variation and completely unexpected individual variation in the microbes that make each of us a super-organism.

How does this variation influence brain development? What does this variable ecosystem of our bodies mean for the individual differences in our minds? Will the microbiome help us to understand or treat mental disorders? All questions that we can begin to address in the fall.

Lest the microbiome leaves you feeling less impressed about being human, a paper just out from Dan Geschwind and his colleagues at UCLA shows us that the human brain, at least the human frontal lobe, is quite unique in evolution.5 Comparing patterns of gene expression in the human frontal lobe to corresponding areas from chimpanzee and monkey brains, the human expression patterns are not only markedly different but markedly more complex. Certain gene networks, such as the network linking to FoxP2 (a gene implicated in language), appear unique to the human brain.

-----------------------------------------------------

Immune system , gut , microbiome , gene expression , autoimmune diseases and colitis. autism ....

Who'd have thunk it ?

ASD Researcher

Of course they have done some really "Good Stuff" on viruses and autism - prenatal and all.

Maternal immune activation causes age- and region-specific changes in brain cytokines in offspring throughout development.

Maternal infection is a risk factor for autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and schizophrenia (SZ). Indeed, modeling this risk factor in mice through maternal immune activation (MIA) causes ASD- and SZ-like neuropathologies and behaviors in the offspring.

Although MIA upregulates pro-inflammatory cytokines in the fetal brain, whether MIA leads to long-lasting changes in brain cytokines during postnatal development remains unknown.

Here, we tested this possibility by measuring protein levels of 23 cytokines in the blood and three brain regions from offspring of poly(I:C)- and saline-injected mice at five postnatal ages using multiplex arrays. Most cytokines examined are present in sera and brains throughout development. MIA induces changes in the levels of many cytokines in the brains and sera of offspring in a region- and age-specific manner.

These MIA-induced changes follow a few, unexpected and distinct patterns. In frontal and cingulate cortices, several, mostly pro-inflammatory, cytokines are elevated at birth, followed by decreases during periods of synaptogenesis and plasticity, and increases again in the adult. Cytokines are also altered in postnatal hippocampus, but in a pattern distinct from the other regions. The MIA-induced changes in brain cytokines do not correlate with changes in serum cytokines from the same animals.

Finally, these MIA-induced cytokine changes are not accompanied by breaches in the blood-brain barrier, immune cell infiltration or increases in microglial density.

Together, these data indicate that MIA leads to long-lasting, region-specific changes in brain cytokines in offspring-similar to those reported for ASD and SZ-that may alter CNS development and behavior.

Mick the Plumber

lilady

Here's another article about off-shore stem cell transplants to *recover* an autistic child from the Thinking Moms Revolution:

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/silent-sunday/

Take a look at the first "comment"

"BB says:
July 19, 2012 at 12:16 pm

Please elaborate on STEM CELL TREATMENT.
I believe this can be helpful.

I also am interested in ways to boost the microbourne with FECAL TRANSPLANTS.
Feedback from TMR thinkers would be appreciated.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/fecal-transplants-work/

Never giving up requires thinking outside the box, esp when you have been there and done that and all of the above with little to no progress in the bio end of this scurge .

Good luck to you, your boy is a sweetheart."

Yup, some of these anti-vaccine *Thinking Mom* loons are collecting their own feces in a bucket for a do-it-yourself fecal transplant experiment on their autistic kids to *recover* them.

Fecal transplants have been used with some success on patients who are desperately ill with recurrent C.difficile infections:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-species-in-the-feces/

Twyla

There's a good article today called "Critical Thinking 101: The Vaccine Debate" at the Thinking Moms' Revolution blog.
http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/critical-thinking-101-the-vaccine-debate/

"It appears that there is a great deal of consensus today on the idea that a large segment of the population is deficient in critical thinking skills. The funny thing is that I see this opinion espoused by people on all sides of every issue. It even comes from some people I consider to be entirely devoid of critical thinking skills. Apparently, there is no consensus on what constitutes critical thinking. A lot of people seem to believe that 'critical thinking' means criticizing the [heck]* out of someone who disagrees with you. It doesn’t. It means examining all sides of a subject and weighing the information you receive to determine what is likely to be closest to the truth, while keeping in mind that no one has the whole truth...

"When it comes to the vaccine debate, most of the information the average person encounters will be secondary sources, the mainstream media. The information comes in pre-digested, pre-analyzed chunks. Don’t believe me? My first assignment in 'Critical Thinking 101: The Vaccine Debate' is to find a mainstream journalism account that 'debunks' the 'vaccine link' to autism. Read the source for what it is, an analysis of the information, not the information itself. Then go to the original – primary – source of the information, usually a scientific study that’s just been released. See if what you read matches up with what the headlines say...

"There is another 'primary source' that is frequently utterly dismissed in the vaccine/autism debate: the parents of autistic children..."


*Had to change a word to get through the filters.

lilady

Twyla...tell us about your child.

Was he diagnosed with a genetic disorder in early childhood?

At what age was he diagnosed with autism?

Which vaccine(s) caused his autism

About Jenny McCarthy who is a brainless twit. Tell us about her transition from a D-list celebrity until she called her child "an Indigo child". She hasn't "recovered" her child who is still having seizures and who was hospitalized for seizure control recently.

Not only is she a brainless twit, she is a potty-mouthed crude woman who pimps her son's condition in her many books that she has written.

Thinking Mom's Revolution? Critical Thinking Skills? Surely, you don't think anything that is posted there is an example of "critical thinking skills". These are the same "moms" who post about deworming their children with oral and rectal bleach solutions. These are the same "moms" who use the same coarse and vulgar language as the "brainless twit" and who label their developmentally disabled children as "train wrecks".

Twyla

Jenny McCarthy's son Evan does still have some seizures, but he is no longer autistic. He speaks fluently, plays, interacts, laughs. He used to be an isolated, incommunicative, autistic boy who could not talk or make eye contact.

Per a 2010 Time magazine article:

“McCarthy had noticed that Evan had some developmental delays, compared with his peers in a playgroup they attended, and he exhibited some atypical behaviors: arm flapping, repetitive actions and fixation on strange objects…”

“A psychological evaluation from UCLA's neuropsychiatric hospital, dated May 10, 2005, was ‘conclusive for a diagnosis of Autistic Disorder,’ and yet here, running toward us on a warm California afternoon [in 2010], is Evan, shouting out, ‘Are you here to play with me? When are we going to play?’ McCarthy's boy is a vivacious, articulate and communicative child who seems to have beaten the condition. He is an inspiration, the fact of him as incontrovertible as any study done in any laboratory in the world.

"’Evan couldn't talk — now he talks. Evan couldn't make eye contact — now he makes eye contact. Evan was antisocial — now he makes friends,’ she explains. ‘It was amazing to watch, over the course of doing this, how certain therapies work for certain kids and they completely don't work for others ... When something didn't work for Evan, I didn't stop. I stopped that treatment, but I didn't stop.’"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1968100-1,00.html

And yes, the author of this article repeats the mantra that science is on the side of no autism-vaccine link, but some would dispute that:
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/vaccines-and-autism-epidemiology-rebuttal.pdf

lilady

Jenny McCarthy claims she *recovered* her child by chelating him, Twyla.

Her organization along with the Autism One yearly conferences, features such *luminaries* of the anti-vaccine movement as honored speakers:

The chemical-castrating, IV chelating Dr. Geier and his son who is not a doctor. BTW Twyla Dr. Geier just had his licensed to practice medicine in Washington and shortly he will have his license revoked in the other states where he has sited his clinics. Son was charged with practicing medicine without a license and fined $ 10,000 for that offense in Maryland.

The maven from off-shore who hawks industrial bleach for oral doses and enemas for parents to deworm their children to *recover* their autistic kids.

Andrew Wakefield

*Practitioners* who send kids to off-shore clinics to have intrathecal IV stem cell treatments.

She's a potty mouthed brainless twit whose fading-fast career as a D-List celeb was revived by claiming that Evan was damaged by vaccines and by pimping Evan's supposed *recovery* in her books.

ASD Researcher

I'd imagine that was again .. confidential medical history.

lilady

"I'd imagine that was again .. confidential medical history."

I'd imagine that you are wrong again, (Not An) ASD Researcher.

Dyson

The imagination is strong in this one, Lilady.

Merton

"There's a good article today called 'Critical Thinking 101: The Vaccine Debate' at the Thinking Moms' Revolution blog."

From four days ago. Critical thinking, Twyla. Crit. Ih. Kal. Thinking.

In any event, the TMR that you are advertising is in fact a hilarious display of exactly the opposite. They've gone so far as to run one piece likening passive-aggressive antivax flower warriors to the French Resistance, and the homeopathy entry is an uproarious exercise in the tossing aside of fact checking.

lilady

Did you see the post on Twyla's link, from one of the "Thinking Moms" who claims her baby had "vaccine-induced encephalitis".

This same poster, posts that same *story* on science blogs. When asked which doctor diagnosed encephalitis and how long her child was hospitalized in an acute care pediatric unit...she just *disappears*

Twyla

Lilady, in case you really do want to be a little lady – if that is what your moniker means – I found this helpful resource for you.
http://www.elegantwoman.org/manners-today.html
Notice these three items on the list of “Good Old Fashioned Manners”:
4. Not prying
5. Not asking personal questions
10. Not asking intrusive personal questions

ASD Researcher

she just *disappears*

Patient confidentiality perhaps ?

lilady

No patient confidentiality (Not An) ASD Researcher. This same poster, has posted that same ludicrous story under her real name in local newspapers.

ASD Researcher

I think patient confidentiality goes a bit beyond someone's name .... but hey that's just me.

Dyson

It seems to be the antivax posters who "emote" about their own personal tragedies in excruciating detail on multiple blogs. Presumably they think this will glean them some sympathy.
Yet when anyone questions the gaping holes in the varying and changeable narratives, they all clam up, pleading "confidentiality". What a joke.

Dyson

It seems to be the antivax posters who "emote" about their own personal tragedies in excruciating detail on multiple blogs. Presumably they think this will glean them some sympathy.
Yet when anyone questions the gaping holes in the varying and changeable narratives, they all clam up, pleading "confidentiality". What a joke.

lilady

Dyson...they do derive secondary gain from "emoting" on their anti-vaccine blogs.

Their crowd provides emotional support when they play the "Pity Me" and "Martyr Me" games. In addition, it provides them with "cover" when they blog and post about the abusive *recovery treatments* that they subject their children to, behind closed doors.

These abusing parents are no different from the perverts who grab kids and derive pleasure from inflicting pain on defenseless children.

ASD Researcher

Dyson below

"It seems to be the antivax posters who "emote" about their own personal tragedies in excruciating detail on multiple blogs. Presumably they think this will glean them some sympathy.
Yet when anyone questions the gaping holes in the varying and changeable narratives, they all clam up, pleading "confidentiality". What a joke."

People can share as much or as little as they see fit ... obviously there are quite clear lines that some do not wish to cross.

Considering some of the reactive statements Dyson I'm sure you'd agree ? Understanding drives change ... perhaps there is a quite reasonable medical explanation that follows parental observations ... genetic risk / vaccine / SCN1A is a nice example.

Balanced,objective, reasonable ....

Twyla

Hahaha, Merton and lilady you are just demonstrating some of the points I have made at various times throughout this thread. Rather than actually addressing the very legitimate issues raised in this intelligent essay, you simply disparage TMR. And lilady you criticize the writer for not sharing more personal medical information about her child. Why should anyone answer your personal questions, especially given your level of hostility? BTW, is that your real name, lilady? Is that your first or last name? You google other's names to find out more about their identities, but you don't use your real name. Are you falsely claiming to be a little lady? Ladies aren't supposed to be mean. Maybe I should call you (not a) lillady.

Merton

"Rather than actually addressing the very legitimate issues raised in this intelligent essay, you simply disparage TMR."

Do you actually want this "very intelligent" thing taken apart? TMR is about at the level of Youtube commenting, but I'll do it if you insist and promise to respond in detail.

lilady

Twyla: Aren't you proud that one of your blogs at AoA was featured on whale.to?

I've been following your blogs at AoA...so there is no need to "google" your name.

I use the 'nym "lilady" because I don't want to be stalked by your pals at AoA.

Your pals at AoA have stalked doctors, researchers and an epidemiologist at their workplaces...in a concerted effort to get them fired. One of your *pals* who is also a *journalist* has physically stalked doctors, journalists and government officials at public meetings.

Dyson

"It appears that there is a great deal of consensus today on the idea that a large segment of the population is deficient in critical thinking skills."

Fortunately that isn't the case today wrt vaccines - the overwhelming majority of Americans support the use of vaccines and indeed use them for their kids.

lilady

"It appears that there is a great deal of consensus today on the idea that a large segment of the population is deficient in critical thinking skills."

Here, let me FTFY...

If you get all your information about vaccines from the TMR, Age of Autism, Generation Rescue and other notorious anti-vaccine websites and your *gurus* include Jenny McCarthy, your heroes include Wakefield and the Geier father-son tag team, you will be deficient in critical thinking skills.

Twyla

Dyson, I support the use of vaccines, too. But I believe that the adverse reactions need to be understood much better.

Merton

"I support the use of vaccines, too."

Please rank the ones that you recommend, Twyla, and highlight those that you would accept.

lilady

Why don't you rank the vaccines that are acceptable to you, Twyla.

You should also tell us why you accept some vaccines and reject others.

Show us with citations from science journals (AoA is not a science journal) what the serious adverse events are from the vaccines you reject.

Show us any vaccine where a severe adverse event (on the order of 1:1,000,000 doses), exceeds the risk of denying a child vaccines that protect that child from serious, sometimes deadly, childhood diseases.

How about commenting about the TMR blog about chemically bleaching a child to deworm that child and to *recover* that child.

How about commenting on your hero Andrew Wakefield whose meetings with Somali parents in Minneapolis to deter them from getting the MMR vaccine...was the catalyst for the measles outbreak last year.

Are you ashamed of being a *guest journalist* on AoA, Twyla?

http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/04/more-emails-fro.html

http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/the-autism-vaccine-controversy-continues.html

http://www.ageofautism.com/2007/11/mmr-chicken-pox.html

lilady

Still waiting for Twyla to answer our questions about her vaccines preferences with citations from sources other than AoA and other anti-vaccine websites.

ASD Researcher

I'd imagine that Twyla has some very good professional medical staff to have a dialogue with. Apparently that's confidential ... as is what she agrees to share.

ASD Researcher

Dyson to clarify your understanding to the previous question below

"Anyway, how is Walker Smith connected to the investigation by Deer into the fraud perpetrated by Wakefield?"

Professor John Walker-Smith was the Senior Clinician , took the medical histories in most cases, was in charge of the patients throughout their stay, designated the treatment regimes , presented the first seven children in a poster presentation before the Lancet paper was published and was one of three doctors that faced false allegations at the GMC.

Cheers I hope that clears that up.

ps In regards to Professor John Walker-Smith all charges were subsequently quashed by the UK High Court.

Dyson

Thanks for clearing it up.

Walker Smith wasn't the one who altered the timelines and fudged the histopathology,
He wasn't the one who "lost" £25,00 research funding,
He wasn't the one who made kids have unnecessary scans, lumbar punctures or bowel biopsies,
He wasn't the one who was found to have acted dishonestly by the GMC,
He wasn't the one who had pocketed $750,000 from antivaccine litigation lawyers while keeping his colleagues and the Lancet in the dark,
He wasn't the one who patented his own therapeutic vaccine to try and prevent measles/autistic bowel,
He wasn't the one who set up venture capital companies to profit to the tune of several million $$ from the new vaccine alternative,
He wasn't the one who breached his contract conditions,
He wasn't the one who unethically treated kids with callous disregard in experimenting on them at a child's birthday party, and then joked about them fainting and throwing up,
He wasn't the one who recommended avoiding MMR.

Wakefield was.

So again, why are we talking about Walker Smith?

ASD Researcher

Let me be kind enough to attend to your above list that can be proven beyond reasonable doubt without - witnesses and documentation or pathology

He wasn't the one who was found to have acted dishonestly by the GMC,
He wasn't the one who recommended avoiding MMR.

Very good ...

Dyson

Thanks for clearing it up.
Walker Smith wasn't the one who altered the timelines and fudged the histopathology,
He wasn't the one who "lost" £25,00 research funding,
He wasn't the one who made kids have unnecessary scans, lumbar punctures or bowel biopsies,
He wasn't the one who was found to have acted dishonestly by the GMC,
He wasn't the one who had pocketed $750,000 from antivaccine litigation lawyers while keeping his colleagues and the Lancet in the dark,
He wasn't the one who patented his own therapeutic vaccine to try and prevent measles/autistic bowel,
He wasn't the one who set up venture capital companies to profit to the tune of several million $$ from the new vaccine alternative,
He wasn't the one who breached his contract conditions,
He wasn't the one who unethically treated kids with callous disregard in experimenting on them at a child's birthday party, and then joked about them fainting and throwing up,
He wasn't the one who recommended avoiding MMR.

Wakefield was.

Dyson

sorry for the double post.
PS that is £25,000 research funding.

ASD Researcher

We to are sorry for the double post.

Documents Dyson ...

Medical records ...

Witness statements ...

Pathology ...

Parent statements ...

Nurse statements ...

Forensic accounting ...

UCL Patents documents ....

------------------------------------------

I say ...he says doesn't quite cut it in a real judiciary.

lilady

Walker-Smith was not the one who traveled to Minneapolis three times to meet with Somali parents to deter them from having their children vaccinated with the MMR vaccine:

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/118547569.html?refer=y

Walker-Smith was not the one whose secret meetings with Somali parents, caused the 2011 outbreak of measles in Minneapolis:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6013a6.htm

"Notes from the Field: Measles Outbreak --- Hennepin County, Minnesota, February--March 2011
Weekly
April 8, 2011 / 60(13);421

On March 2, 2011, the Minnesota Department of Health (MDH) confirmed measles in a Hennepin County resident aged 9 months. As of April 1, investigation of contacts and heightened surveillance had revealed a total of 13 epidemiologically linked cases in Hennepin County residents. Of those cases, 11 were laboratory confirmed, and two were in household contacts of confirmed cases and met the clinical case definition for measles.

The patients included children aged 4 months--4 years and one adult aged 51 years; seven of the 13 were of Somali decent. Eight patients were hospitalized. Vaccination status was known for 11 patients: five were too young to have been vaccinated, and six (all of Somali descent) had not been vaccinated because of parental concerns about the safety of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine. The most recent rash onset was March 28. An additional, unrelated case of measles was confirmed in a Hennepin County resident aged 34 years who was exposed in Orlando, Florida, sometime during March 1--10.

The investigation determined that the index patient was a U.S.-born child of Somali descent, aged 30 months, who developed a rash February 15, 14 days after returning from a trip to Kenya. The patient attended a drop-in child care center 1 day before rash onset; measles developed in three contacts at the center and in one household contact. Secondary and tertiary exposures occurred in two congregate living facilities for homeless persons (four patients), an emergency department (two patients), and households (two patients). A virus isolate from the index patient was genotyped at CDC as B3, which is endemic in sub-Saharan Africa."

The disgraced and delicensed medical doctor Andrew Wakefield is a public health menace.


ASD Researcher

He was ? After the very procedural legitimacy of the GMC was, not for the first time questioned... I'll suppose we will have to wait for your allegations to be tested in a judicial court.

It didn't seem to go to well last time.

But as you already know there's a rather large back story, seems to be a certain lack of documentation , interviewed witnesses etc etc

...oh and that reminds me where is the documentation you promised ?

lilady

(Not An) ASD Researcher...

Why don't you comment on Wakefield's activities in Minneapolis and the two links I provided about the measles outbreak in 2011?

Wakefield is a public health menace.

ASD Researcher

See below ...

There's a reason I should comment on that ?

But let us consider the value and content of the Lancet paper minus MMR

Inflammation / colitis

Systemic immune dysfunction

you know the drill ... science is rolling right over the top of the skeptic blogosphere. (It's part of the conspiracy)

ASD Researcher

The Infant Brain

Some of the most basic understanding of neurogenesis may be changing as this research from Harvard University indicates clearly. But what about it's relationship to autism ... part of the neurology of autism is the overgrowth of certain brain structures.

"Conventional wisdom suggests that the brain’s branches develop as a newborn begins to experience the world. With more experience, those connections are strengthened, and new branches emerge as the baby learns and grows.

A new study conducted in a Harvard lab, however, signals that just the opposite is true.

As reported June 7 in the journal Neuron, a team of researchers led by Jeff Lichtman, the Jeremy R. Knowles Professor of Molecular and Cellular Biology, found that just days before birth mice undergo an explosion of neuromuscular branching. At birth, some muscle fibers were contacted by as many as 10 nerve cells. Within days, however, all but one of those connections had been pruned away.

“By the time mammals — and humans would certainly be included — are first coming into the world, when they can do almost nothing, the brain is probably very wired up,” Lichtman said. “Through experience, the brain works to select, out of this mass of possible circuits, a very small subset … and everything else that could have been there is gone.

“I don’t think anyone suspected that this was taking place — I certainly didn’t,” he continued. “In some simple muscles, every nerve cell branches out and contacts every muscle fiber. That is, the wiring diagram is as diffuse as possible. But by the end, only two weeks later, every muscle fiber is the lifelong partner of a single nerve cell, and 90 percent of the wires have disappeared.”

Eventually, he said, J.D. Wylie, one of the lead authors, used a new idea — using antibodies to label nerve cells — and a bit of luck to deliver a payoff.

After reaching its peak at birth, researchers found the branching was quickly pruned back, until just a single nerve axon remained connected to each muscle fiber. Though there isn’t a definitive answer to what drives that pruning process, strong evidence points to experience, Lichtman said.

“We think that experience must be the engine that allows some branches to survive and the vast majority to disappear,” he said. “If this were a stereotypical developmental program, you might imagine that it might trim off whole parts of the arbor, but when you look at where the 10 percent of surviving branches are located, you see the arbor extends over the same area, it simply has fewer branches. It has chosen, at the terminal level, which branches to keep and which not to.”

Lichtman plans to study how those decisions are made, work that could lead to insight into a number of disorders, including autism.

“That is one theory people have talked about, whether autism could be a disorder where connections that should have been trimmed back weren’t, and as a result stimuli are much more intense than they should be,” he said. “There are stories about children with autism spectrum disorders who cannot run in their bare feet on grass, because it’s just too painful.”

Ultimately, Lichtman said, the paper spotlights mammals’ unique developmental strategy."

Once again this paper speaks clearly to continued research into what intersects at particualrly vulnerable stages of development anesthetics

Neonatal exposure to sevoflurane induces abnormal social behaviors and deficits in fear conditioning in mice.

Neonatal exposure to anesthetics that block N-methyl-D-aspartate receptors and/or hyperactivate gamma-aminobutyric acid type A receptor has been shown to cause neuronal degeneration in the developing brain leading to functional deficits later in adulthood. The authors investigated whether exposure of neonatal mice to inhaled sevoflurane causes deficits in social behavior as well as learning disabilities.

Six-day-old C57BL/6 mice were exposed to 3% sevoflurane for 6 h. Activated cleaved caspase-3 immunohistochemical staining was used for detection of apoptosis. Cognitive functions were tested by pavlovian conditioned fear test. Social behavior was tested by social recognition and interaction tests.

Neonatal exposure to sevoflurane significantly increased the number of apoptotic cells in the brain immediately after anesthesia.

It caused persistent learning deficits later in adulthood as evidenced by decreased freezing response in both contextual and cued fear conditioning. The social recognition test demonstrated that mice with neonatal exposure to sevoflurane did not develop social memory.

Furthermore, these mice showed decreased interactions with a social target compared with controls in the social interaction test, indicating a social interaction deficit. The authors did not attribute these abnormalities in social behavior to impairments of general interest in novelty or olfactory sensation, because they did not detect significant differences in the test for novel inanimate object interaction or for olfaction.

This study shows that exposure of neonatal mice to inhaled sevoflurane could cause not only learning deficits but also abnormal social behaviors resembling autism spectrum disorder.

lilady

(Not An) ASD Researcher: Have you opened up another can of Spam?

BTW (Not An) ASD Researcher/Blackheart...what are your credentials to verify that you are qualified to call your self an ASD Researcher?

ASD Researcher

In the long and personal journey of raising my disabled son ... who likes his privacy as much as I do.

I am now asking you specifically to refrain from this avenue of enquiry as both my family and I value our privacy.

lilady

You've been busted (Not An) ASD Researcher. You've posted your Spam under a number of sockies.

I have a BSc-Nursing Degree, conferred by a United States University. I am a licensed Registered Nurse and recently retired as a public health nurse/epidemiologist from a County Department of Health, Division of Communicable Disease Control. My son who died eight years ago, was born with a rare genetic disorder and had autistic-like behaviors.


Why do you use numerous sockies on the Ho-Po? Why have you used "Blackheart" as your 'nym on the Respectful Insolence blog? Why do you claim you are an "ASD Researcher", whilst you post your Spam on this and other LaCrosse Tribune blogs?

What are your credentials (Not An) ASD Researcher...aside from being an anti-vaccine crank and Wakefield apologist?

ASD Researcher

Address the arguments presented.

ASD Researcher

Why do you use numerous sockies on the Ho-Po?

I don't .

Why have you used "Blackheart" as your 'nym on the Respectful Insolence blog?

It was appropriate

Why do you claim you are an "ASD Researcher"

Because I do.

What are your credentials (Not An) ASD Researcher

Other than my university degrees ... my intelligence and good looks.

aside from being an anti-vaccine crank and Wakefield apologist?

Actually my family and I fully support the vaccine programme and actually spend a great deal of our finances supporting vaccine programmes and child health in other countries.

Professor John Walker-Smith apologist would be more accurate.

ASD Researcher

Justice Mitting Highlights - Quashing of Charges against Professor John Walker-Smith

For the reasons given above, both on general issues and the Lancet paper and in relation to individual children, the panel's overall conclusion that Professor Walker-Smith was guilty of serious professional misconduct was flawed, in two respects: inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion.

Miss Glynn submits that the materials which I have been invited to consider would support many of the panel's critical findings; and that I can safely infer that, without saying so, it preferred the evidence of the GMC's experts, principally Professor Booth, to that given by Professor Walker-Smith and Dr. Murch and by Dr. Miller and Dr. Thomas. Even if it were permissible to perform such an exercise, which I doubt, it would not permit me to rescue the panel's findings.

As I have explained, the medical records provide an equivocal answer to most of the questions which the panel had to decide. The panel had no alternative but to decide whether Professor Walker-Smith had told the truth to it and to his colleagues, contemporaneously.

The GMC's approach to the fundamental issues in the case led it to believe that that was not necessary – an error from which many of the subsequent weaknesses in the panel's determination flowed. It had to decide what Professor Walker-Smith thought he was doing: if he believed he was undertaking research in the guise of clinical investigation and treatment, he deserved the finding that he had been guilty of serious professional misconduct and the sanction of erasure; if not, he did not, unless, perhaps, his actions fell outside the spectrum of that which would have been considered reasonable medical practice by an academic clinician. Its failure to address and decide that question is an error which goes to the root of its determination.

The panel's determination cannot stand. I therefore quash it. Miss Glynn, on the basis of sensible instructions, does not invite me to remit it to a fresh Fitness to Practice panel for redetermination. The end result is that the finding of serious professional misconduct and the sanction of erasure are both quashed.

I am told by Miss Glynn that the GMC, after careful consideration, decided not to accuse Professor Walker-Smith of lying to Dr. Pegg and the Ethics Committee. Accordingly, their case was that he was in fact undertaking research, which required Ethics Committee approval, without realising that he was doing so.

This is an untenable proposition , as the analysis of the letter of 11th November 1996 above demonstrates. In consequence, not only was the panel invited by the GMC not to determine Professor Walker-Smith's intention, it was also invited not to determine his truthfulness in his dealings with the Ethics Committee.

Facts negating the proposition

i) None of the five clinicians involved in the investigation of the Lancet children who gave evidence to the panel considered that they were following Project 172-96.

ii) None of the children fitted the hypothesis to be tested under Project 172-96 , in that none of them had both received a single or double vaccine and had developed disintegrative disorder. The great majority had received MMR vaccine and been diagnosed with autism.

iii) No parent was required to sign either the consent form in the proposals submitted to the Ethics Committee or in the revised form approved by it. With one exception (child 2 – see paragraph 34 below) the only consent forms signed were for diagnostic colonoscopy and the additional research biopsies approved in September 1995.

iv) In every case investigations were followed by a discharge letter prepared by Dr. Casson which set out a diagnosis of the child's condition and by a recommendation for treatment. In some cases, the treatment produced an apparent marked improvement in gastrointestinal symptoms and behaviour.

v) Dr. Pegg was not the only responsible person to whom Professor Walker-Smith stated that the investigations were clinically indicated; he told Mr. Else, Chief Executive of the Royal Free NHS Trust that they were , as Mr. Else confirmed to Dr. Wakefield on 4th September 1996; he gave a lecture at the Wellcome Trust on 20th December 1996 in which he spoke of the investigations and gastrointestinal diagnoses of the first seven Lancet children; on 6th February 1997, he wrote to Dr. O'Connor, a Consultant in Public Health Medicine responsible for funding the referrals of children 6 and 7 to him, enclosing a five page explanation of the rationale, aims and potential therapeutic implications of the investigations, in which he and Dr. Wakefield set out the clinical justification for them. Although the latter document was described by the GMC as "defensive" it was never suggested to Professor Walker-Smith that he deliberately misled his interlocutors about his intention.

vi) Professor Walker-Smith had no rational motive to begin research before it was authorised, carry it out in breach of the requirements of the Ethics Committee after it was authorised or deliberately to mislead the Ethics Committee and others about his intention. Unlike Dr. Wakefield, he was agnostic or cautious about the claimed link between MMR and autism and gastrointestinal disorders. On 29th and 31st July 1997 he wrote privately to Dr. Wakefield to express his and Dr. Murch's concern that their professional reputation would be damaged by association with work prematurely leaked to the media.

vii) As Miss Glynn accepts, a clinical protocol can, in principle, prescribe multiple identical investigations into patients with complex and intractable problems in an attempt to diagnose their condition.

Child 2

The panel's conclusion that Professor Walker-Smith's conduct was contrary to the clinical interests of child 2 depends upon the conclusions analysed above. Because they are inadequate or wrong, this conclusion falls with them.

I have dwelt at length upon the case of child 2, because it was the case upon which both sides placed greatest reliance. I will be able to deal more shortly with the cases of the other Lancet children; but my analysis of their cases is informed by the conclusions which I have reached about the case of child 2.

Child 1

The panel's conclusion that Professor Walker-Smith's conduct was contrary to the clinical interests of child 1 depends upon its previous findings and stands or falls with them. There is no appeal against the finding at paragraph 7i which was a conclusion open to the panel; but it was a minor criticism of Professor Walker-Smith's conduct. Even if it could amount to professional misconduct, which I doubt, it could not amount to serious professional misconduct.

Child 3

It required a finding about their honesty as witnesses and, in the case of Professor Walker-Smith about his truthfulness in his dealings with the Ethics Committee. Further, as in all of the cases, findings about Professor Walker-Smith's purpose in undertaking the investigations were bound to be influenced – perhaps determinatively – by the panel's findings on clinical indications for the major investigations. The fact that its findings on those issues are insupportable undermines its findings under paragraphs 9a and b.

The finding at 9i stands or falls with the remaining findings.

Child 6

The panel's reliance on the single sentence in Professor Walker-Smith's letter of 4th October 1996 and on unspecified aspects of the medical records is superficial and inadequate to address a difficult question. The wording of its finding at paragraph 13e is puzzling, but because the allegation was not found proved it is unnecessary for me to say more about it.

Child 9

The finding at 17k stands or falls with the earlier findings and adds nothing to them. There was an additional finding, at 15j that Professor Walker-Smith failed to record the difference between the histological description provided to Dr. Spratt on 31st December 1996 and the clinical histology report. Professor Walker-Smith accepted that this omission was highly unsatisfactory. There is no appeal against the finding, but if, which I doubt, the omission amounted to professional misconduct, it could not have amounted to serious professional misconduct.

Child 5

The findings of the panel under sub-paragraph 17i stand or fall with the earlier findings and add nothing to them.

Child 12

For the reasons given above, on the case presented by the GMC, the panel's conclusion that Professor Walker-Smith was guilty of serious professional misconduct in the handling of child 12's case was not merely flawed, but wrong.

Child 8

It is a minor instance of the panel fixing on an insignificant bit of evidence to support a finding, when the evidence which had to be analysed to do so was not.

The finding at 21j stands or falls with the other findings and adds nothing to them.

Child 7

Professor Walker-Smith's answer was that he did not admit child 7 under Project 172-96 because that project was never undertaken. The notes made by other clinicians on which the panel based its finding in paragraph 23a suggest that they had a different understanding. Two conclusions were possible: that Professor Walker-Smith had failed to make his intentions clear to other members of his clinical team, once Ethics Committee approval for 172-96 had been given; or that he did intend that child 7 should be admitted under the project, but failed to appreciate that his case did not fit within the confines of the admission criteria, if strictly construed. Given the panel's finding that the procedures were clinically indicated and in the clinical interests of child 7, the second possibility, which is what the panel appears to have found, was open to it. It then had to consider the significance of this finding.

Child 10

The significance of the panel's findings to the overall case against Professor Walker-Smith is the same as in the case of child 7.

Conclusions to be drawn from the panel's findings in the Lancet children's cases

It is in its findings on the clinical issues in the individual cases of the Lancet children that the most numerous and significant inadequacies and errors in the determination of the panel occur. In no individual case in which the panel made a finding adverse to Professor Walker-Smith did it address the expert evidence led for him, except to misstate it. The issues to which this evidence went were of fundamental importance to the case against him. Universal inadequacies and some errors in the panel's determination accordingly go to the heart of the case. They are not curable.

Dyson

Further copy pasta of irrelevant spam follows from the "ASD researcher"...........

Dyson

It is unfortunate that the numerous sockpuppet that JRS posts under he should have chosen one which describes himself as being an "ASD researcher".

He has admitted that he is not, other than having had first hand experience of raising a son with ASD. This is the Jenny McCarthy concept of "my son is my science".

Perhaps he now regrets using this nym, but I dobt it, he is too intransigent to admit to an error, be it factual or judgemental, as we have all plainly seen.

lilady

I doubt that JRS and his sock puppets (Not An) ASD Researcher and Blackheart regret anything. IF he has a child with an ASD, that still doesn't excuse his thread derailing Spam on this blog and on each and every blog he has ever posted on.

It's as though he believes we would ever be impressed with a spammer who justs cuts and pastes aimlessly, without any knowledge of human physiology, neurology, infant development, immunology and epidemiology. At least Jenny McCarthy is "smart enough" to realize she is a brainless twit and stays away from anything that sounds "sciency"

Merton

Using different pseudonyms in wholly different locations is not sockpuppetry. On the other hand, adopting one that is quite arguably intended to mislead and having this observed, particularly when one posts the exact same stuff under one's own name elsewhere, is not "outing." Apparently, JRS is unconcerned about his privacy at HuffPost but is grievously afeared of being tracked down by the citizens of La Crosse. Or putting on a show, you be the judge.

ASD Researcher

ahhh ... the conspiracy deepens, apparently I am a one man army that has nothing better to do with his time than take on varying personalities (sockpuppets) in an effort to undermine the foundations of science (read skepticism).

Of course inventing along the way a plethora of academic qualifications and a non existent family.

...and in perhaps an unnerving coincidence able to 'Jedi' mind trick a UK High Court Judge into quashing all the allegations against Professor John Walker-Smith.

But there you go ... why would I doubt you.

Cheers

Mick the Plumber

ps How are those links to the documents you were asked for going.

Twyla

Lilady, you are the one derailing the thread with your constant carping. ASD Researcher has posted a lot of information, and you can only respond by calling it "spam", launching ad hominem attacks, and making repeated requests for personal information.

From Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Definition of RESEARCH
1: careful or diligent search
2: studious inquiry or examination; especially: investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts, revision of accepted theories or laws in the light of new facts, or practical application of such new or revised theories or laws
3: the collecting of information about a particular subject

I have no idea whether ASD Researcher actually conducts studies and publishes them. But clearly he is a researcher of ASD in the colloquial sense - "careful or diligent search", "studious inquiry or examination...", and "the collecting of information about a particular subject".

A student might say, "I'm going to the library to research a paper that's due next week." That doesn't mean the student is doing original research on live subjects to be published in a peer reviewed journal.

So, really, give it a break. He's not claiming to be something he's not. He's not saying "I have PhD and MD degrees from XYZ Universities and published 45 papers." He is just a person who has done research on ASD - whether conducting studies I don't know - but certainly at least in the general sense of the word.

He is also not saying that people should believe him because he has a certain status or title. He is just presenting information from verifiable sources along with his opinions, interpretations, commentary - for readers' consideration.

As for Jenny McCarthy, the woman you call a "brainless twit" recovered her son from autism. (And yes, he was diagnosed with autism by a qualified professional, and has lost that diagnosis.) She is the author of ten books including popular autobiographical books about the experiences of pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood, and recovering her son from autism, a book on autism treatments co-written with Dr. Jerry Kartzinel, and a collection of stories by autism parents. In a better world, there would be a lot of interest in how she was able to recover her son from autism - instead of derision, scorn, dismissal.

Merton

"From Merriam-Webster dictionary"

Spectacular fail, Twyla.

ASD Researcher

I believe good editorial staff always have a Merriam-Webster by their side.

ASD Researcher

Autism and Schizophrenia : Genes and Environment

There is a close relationship between autism and schizophrenia that has not been fully elucidated, there are genes that overlap in both disorders and environmental factors as well.

Some researchers are looking carefully at the prenatal and neonatal environment and the interaction of viruses during key phases of development. For instance the influenza virus has been associated with a 7 fold risk for later development of schizophrenia. Rubella virus associated with the development of autism and in schizophrenia, has an even greater risk perhaps 10 to 20.

Past research has shown linkages between measles, mumps and rubella in autism and the biological underpinnings have yet to be fully explored.

This interesting research from Johns Hopkins underlines why this debate needs to be far more sophisticated then it currently stands. The continuing development of safe and efficacious medicines and vaccines has not been concluded. Nor has our knowledge of the interaction of viruses and autism ceased.

Human genome and mouse studies identify new precise genetic links.

http://insciences.org/article.php?article_id=10715

Working with genetically engineered mice and the genomes of thousands of people with schizophrenia, researchers at Johns Hopkins say they now better understand how both nature and nurture can affect one’s risks for schizophrenia and abnormal brain development in general.

The researchers reported in the March 2 issue of Cell that defects in a schizophrenia-risk genes and environmental stress right after birth together can lead to abnormal brain development and raise the likelihood of developing schizophrenia by nearly one and half times.

“Our study suggests that if people have a single genetic risk factor alone or a traumatic environment in very early childhood alone, they may not develop mental disorders like schizophrenia,” says Guo-li Ming, M.D., Ph.D., professor of neurology and member of the Institute for Cell Engineering at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. “But the findings also suggest that someone who carries the genetic risk factor and experiences certain kinds of stress early in life may be more likely to develop the disease.”

Pinpointing the cause or causes of schizophrenia has been notoriously difficult, owing to the likely interplay of multiple genes and environmental triggers, Ming says. Searching for clues at the molecular level, the Johns Hopkins team focused on the interaction of two factors long implicated in the disease: Disrupted-in-Schizophrenia 1 (DISC1) protein, which is important for brain development, and GABA, a brain chemical needed for normal brain function.

To find how these factors impact brain development and disease susceptibility, the researchers first engineered mice to have reduced levels of DISC1 protein in one type of neuron in the hippocampus, a region of the brain involved in learning, memory and mood regulation. Through a microscope, they saw that newborn mouse brain cells with reduced levels of DISC1 protein had similar sized and shaped neurons as those from mice with normal levels of DISC1 protein. To change the function of the chemical messenger GABA, the researchers engineered the same neurons in mice to have more effective GABA. Those brain cells looked much different than normal neurons, with longer appendages or projections.

Newborn mice engineered with both the more effective GABA and reduced levels of DISC1 showed the longest projections, suggesting, Ming said, that defects in both DISC1 and GABA together could change the physiology of developing neurons for the worse.

Meanwhile, other researchers at University of Calgary and at the National Institute of Physiological Sciences in Japan had shown in newborn mice that changes in environment and routine stress can impede GABA from working properly during development.

In the next set of experiments, the investigators paired reducing DISC1 levels and stress in mice to see if it could also lead to developmental defects. To stress the mice, the team separated newborns from their mothers for three hours a day for ten days, then examined neurons from the stressed newborns and saw no differences in their size, shape and organization compared with unstressed mice.

But when they similarly stressed newborn mice with reduced DISC1 levels, the neurons they saw were larger, more disorganized and had more projections than the unstressed mouse neurons. The projections, in fact, went to the wrong places in the brain.

Next, to see if their results in mice correlated to suspected human schizophrenia risk factors, the researchers compared the genetic sequences of 2,961 schizophrenia patients and healthy people from Scotland, Germany and the United States.

Specifically, they determined if specific variations of DNA letters found in two genes, DISC1 and a gene for another protein, NKCC1, which controls the effect of GABA, were more likely to be found in schizophrenia patients than in healthy individuals. They paired 36 DNA “letter” changes in DISC1 and two DNA letter variations in NKCC1 — one DNA letter change per gene — in all possible combinations. Results showed that if a person’s genome contained one specific combination of single DNA letter changes, then that person is 1.4 times more likely than people without these DNA changes to develop schizophrenia. Having these single DNA letter changes in either one of these genes alone did not increase risk.

“Now that we have identified the precise genetic risks, we can rationally search for drugs that correct these defects,”says Hongjun Song, Ph.D., co-author, professor of neurology and director of the Stem Cell Program at the Institute for Cell Engineering

---------------------------

Obviously there are differing perspectives that can be taken into translating this research into this issue. For instance if viruses play a part in early life stress then we need to examine effective ways to prevent them in the first place ie implementation of vaccines , equally we need to be sure that the intersection of paediatric medicines / vaccines at this time is examined.

Prenatal Infection as a Risk Factor for Schizophrenia

http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/2/200.long

Convergent functional genomics of schizophrenia: from comprehensive understanding to genetic risk prediction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22584867

The DISC1 promoter: characterization and regulation by FOXP2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22434823

Schizophrenia spectrum and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder symptoms in autism spectrum disorder and controls.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23021482

Association testing of copy number variants in schizophrenia and autism spectrum disorders.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22958593

* As always we should continue to vaccinate our children and ourselves.

Merton

"There is a close relationship between autism and schizophrenia that has not been fully elucidated"

John, how do you figure that this particular wall of boldface-punctuated text establishes the "translational" compartmentalization that your lede both assumes and circularly demands?

ASD Researcher

Of course there will be those that just can't grasp the implications....

Merton

That's not an answer, John. You certainly aren't "grasping" and "implications" by merely collecting word associations.

ASD Researcher

"associations" is precisely the answer you seek..... you are slipping.

Twyla

Michael Winfrey says, "It’s unfortunate that the Tribune chose to promote this as a 'debate' in its Sept. 30 article, which led to the misconception that the university was hosting a debate between two opposing views."

The headline of the 9/30 article was, "Vaccine-autism debate coming to La Crosse". This is accurate. This debate did come to La Crosse. The headline does not imply that the University held a debate. The University made it quite clear that they only wanted to hear one side of this story - the side that says there is no connection between the MMR and autism - the side which brands all doctors, scientists, and parents who believe otherwise as delusional, ignorant, and/or dishonest. That's the story that the University allowed to be told. That is all that they wanted to hear.

But, never-the-less, the debate did come to La Crosse. Dr. Wakefield himself and several committed parents spoke at a park there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5vpZSLW4ds&feature=player_embedded

A local TV news station headline read, "Vaccine-Autism debate reaches La Crosse"
http://www.news8000.com/news/Vaccine-Autism-debate-reaches-La-Crosse/-/326/16864476/-/etrym0z/-/index.html

A number of concerned parents attended Brian Deer's lecture, and some wrote about it:

Brian Deer at UW-Lacrosse "The future for investigative journalism is very bleak"
By Nancy Hokkanen
http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/10/brian-deer-at-uw-future-of-investigative-journalism-is-bleak.html

Brian Deer at the University of WI La Crosse: “An Elaborate Fraud”
By Anne Dachel
http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/10/brian-deer-at-the-university-of-wi-la-crosse-an-elaborate-fraud.html

You see, Michael Winfrey, this debate is alive and roaring, as is shown for example by the hundreds of comments posted on the Tribune about these events.

But I can understand why Brian Deer's views were expressed unchallenged. If a debate had occurred, his idiocy and dishonesty would have been exposed. He could not stand up to Dr. Wakefield's clear intellect, accurate information, and integrity.

lilady

Twyla: There is no debate. Period.

Twyla

A definition of debate: "To engage in argument by discussing opposing points."

That exists, no question. There is a whole lot of ongoing debate on the topic of vaccines and autism, and on vaccine safety. This debate can't be squelched simply by proclaiming, "Science has spoken".

lilady

Twyla, you've been "busted" as a "journalist" for Age of Autism. What pre-existing genetic disorder did your child have....and when was you child diagnosed with autistic-type behaviors.

Which vaccine do you claim caused your child's ASD diagnosis?

Inquiring minds want to know.

ASD Researcher

Yes it's not as if other research relating to either vaccines or autism is stagnating because the skeptic blogosphere says so.

Though one does suspect that is the very reason we see the types of post over and over again.

Dyson

Miriam Webster again?

ASD Researcher

"Miriam Webster again?"

Dictionaries do have uses, Dyson.

Merton

"If a debate had occurred, his idiocy and dishonesty would have been exposed."

There's nothing left to "debate," Twyla, except in the minds of the appropriately described sad rump of disciples or, as well put by Ken at Popehat, "people who believe that the scientific method involves believing things very fervently."

ASD Researcher

There's nothing left to "debate,"...

In certain issues this is entirely true ... take for instance the allegations made against Professor John Walker-Smith , Professor Simon Murch and Dr Andrew Wakfield in regards to the clinical care of the disabled children commonly referred to as the Lancet 12 children.

Of course this ripples though the skeptic monologue ....

*Nice skeptics linking skeptics ... has a certain "hive mind" that can't be good for critical thinking.

Merton

"take for instance the allegations made against Professor John Walker-Smith , Professor Simon Murch and Dr Andrew Wakfield"

Well, JRS, you know as well as I do that Wakefield's Texas effort isn't going anywhere, so if you would like to draw him in by sloppy seconds, you're more than welcome to address the issue of why he brought a jurisdictionally flawed action in Texas in the first place rather than in the obvious domicile of the defendant, which also happens to be the most plaintiff-friendly venue ever contrived by man, aside from the loser-pays element, which really is a nullity, as the Texas anti-SLAPP law effects essentially the same thing.

ASD Researcher

That's not rocket science ... who funded the GMC enquiry ?

£7 million of it ... the subtle ways of the "Great Game".

* (Google is your friend - GMC Charitable status)

lilady

Still defending the disgraced former doctor Wakefield and his fraudulent research, eh (Not An) ASD Researcher?

You better start praying that the Texas lawsuit doesn't go to trial...I don't think that Walker-Smith would be too happy to be summoned to testify. Maybe Walker-Smith could tell the court what ever happened to all the tissue specimens and the histopathology reports...that "mysteriously went missing".

Twyla

Funny, Merton, it's the vaccine defenders who tend to believe things very fervently, for example making empty declarations that a vaccine-autism link has been disproven without citing any evidence to support the opinion expressed. It is the critics of vaccines who are more likely to post links to studies, and other kinds of evidence such adverse events which have been witnessed, and court cases.

Merton

"It is the critics of vaccines who are more likely to post links to studies"

That's an odd remark, Twyla, as you have provided exactly one in your comments here, Goines & Van de Water, which you plainly do not understand in the slightest, preferring to merely copy some words from the abstract and claim "immune derangement," by which you mean "vaccines, a fate worse than death."

You seem to think that typing "cytokine" or "Th1" (BTW, tell me why that's an error if you will) are magic incantations of some sort. Indeed, one might note that your AoA piece enshrined at whale.to pulls out Vargas et al. for a similar purpose and that this item is often hilariously repeated by those who didn't notice one minor problem (it really is minor, but the repetition is quite telling).

lilady

Still waiting for your *recommendations* and citations about your preferred vaccines, Twyla.

Still avoiding those questions posed to you hours ago, eh?

Twyla

Merton, I never said nor meant anything anywhere near to "vaccines, a fate worse than death." Typical twisting of my words and mislabeling, purposefully misconstruing all that I have said over and over again.

ASD Researcher

What's the "Orac at Insolence" have to say ?

lilady

You really ought to come back to the Respectful Insolence website.

Do try to restrain yourself, however. We really had our fill of the Spam copy pasta that you posted under Blackheart, (Not An) ASD Researcher.

ASD Researcher

"come back" ?

My an interesting 'assumption"....

otto

Parents- observe how the vaccine mouthpieces change the subject when they have to confront their own behavior.

Lilady tirelessly defends Merck and other companies that knowingly engaged in deliberate, criminal activities. Merck's falsified research was planted in peer reviewed medical journals and Merck concealed the evidence they had that their meds were killing and maiming humans. The same Merck publishes research data on the shots they make, and scream bloody murder that they must have VICP or they cannot make shots.

Confronted with this, Lilady shrivels like George Costanza's weenie after immersion in the cold waters of Long Island Sound. Lilady will state that vaccines are safe and are not implicated in brain damage, but she will not address repeated queries regarding the existence of the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, the Vaccine Adverse Effect Reporting System, or Vaccine Safety Data Link. Lilady doesn't want to address that. She wants you to not dig into those programs, because if the shots are as safe as she endlessly repeats, those programs would not exist. Right?
The VAERS is accessible through CDC.gov. A simple search shows numerous reports of brain damage associated with vaccines. The VICP has paid out billions of US dollars to families who are victims of vaccine caused brain injury. The claims paid come from the US Government program designed to indemnify vaccine makers from the damages caused by the shots.
So Lilady reverts to the propagandistic technique of change the subject (to lawsuits? really?) and hype the "controversy" and avoid the hard, cold science. The truth is that the vaccine manufacturers are known criminal enterprises based on their recent past actions. That is why they have paid billions in criminal fines. People died as a result of their published, falsified research. Trust them that the vaccines are safe? Not a chance. Defund VICP, subject these companies to discovery, and find who knew what and when did they know it.

Merton

"Parents- observe how the vaccine mouthpieces change the subject when they have to confront their own behavior."

Project much?

It's of no accord; as noted, attempting to invoke Zyklon-B has lost you the thread and whatever semblance of credibility you thought your semicoherent ramblings carried in the first place.

otto

OK- let me re-prhase it.

Lilady would have made a great spokesperson for the defoliation properties of Agent Orange."

Feel better?

Let me try again-

"Lilady would make a great spokesperson for the tranquilizing effects of thalidomide."

Now- are you ready to stay on topic and address the existence of the VICP, VAERS and Safety Data Link, within the context of the construct that you keep promoting that "vaccines are safe."
Are you ready to discuss the fact that vaccines cause brain damage, as demonstrated by a review of the payouts by VICP, as well as by searching the Vaccine Adverse Effects Reporting System database available at CDC.gov?
I haven't changed my question one iota-"if the vaccines are so safe, why is there a VICP?" Well? What about it?

Merton

"OK- let me re-prhase it."

Oh, no, the original speaks for itself. There's no tinkering with such a perfect, intimate expression of one's Weltanschauung.

lilady

Schnaut: I reside in the United States...not Germany where you live. Thalidomide was not licensed in the United States by the FDA:

"Lilady would make a great spokesperson for the tranquilizing effects of thalidomide."

Here Schnaut...see how a German Manufacturer unleashed Thalidomide on the rest of the world. The developer of Thalidomide was a Nazi *scientist*.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/world/europe/grunenthal-group-apologizes-to-thalidomide-victims.html

"German Drug Maker Apologizes to Victims of Thalidomide
By JOHN F. BURNS
Published: September 1, 2012

"LONDON — Decades of campaigning by victims of thalidomide, a morning sickness drug, have taken a new turn, with the first apology in 50 years to the victims and their families by the drug’s German manufacturer — and an incensed rejection of the apology as too little and too late from many of those it was intended to placate.

The apology was issued Friday by Harald Stock, chief executive of the Grünenthal Group, a family-owned pharmaceutical company that marketed the drug in the 1950s and early 1960s. It was withdrawn in 1961 after it was linked to birth defects, including shortened arms and legs, and in some cases no limbs at all, that campaigners say affected 10,000 babies around the world, mostly in Australia, Canada, Europe and Japan.

The apology came in a speech Mr. Stock delivered in the Rhineland town of Stolberg, the company’s base, at the unveiling of a thalidomide memorial, a bronze statue of a limbless child.

Addressing the victims and their families, he said the company wished to “apologize for the fact that we have not found the way to you from person to person for almost 50 years.

“Instead, we have been silent, and we are very sorry for that.”

According to an English translation of his remarks that appeared on Grünenthal’s Web site, he added, “We ask that you regard our long silence as a sign of the shock that your fate caused in us.” As for the company’s delay in moving beyond its previous expressions of regret for marketing the drug to a direct apology to the victims, he said that in recent discussions with victims and their families, “we learned how much it is publicly desired that we express our deep regrets to those affected by thalidomide.”

Although thalidomide was never approved for use by pregnant women in the United States, some victims are American.

One is Berrisford Boothe, 51, an associate professor of art at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pa., who described himself in a telephone interview as one of 26 known American thalidomide victims. He said he had been born with severe disabilities in both hands and one arm, and described his life as a “long and isolated journey.”

Now, he said, Grünenthal, shaken from a half century of denial by a class-action lawsuit in Australia, had made “some kind of statement that they are emotionally connected to our suffering. They’ve had 50 years to make billions of dollars while we struggled and our parents committed suicide. And now, they’re apologizing for not saying anything. How dare they do that and think it’s going to be enough?”

Mr. Stock said the company had carried out all the tests on thalidomide before it was marketed that were possible given the scientific knowledge available in the 1950s.

But the storm of protest the apology provoked from thalidomide victims and groups that represent them suggested that it had done little to assuage the anger and hurt accumulated over decades of campaigning for a full acknowledgment of thalidomide’s harm, and for more generous compensation.

“It is over 50 years on since the thalidomide tragedy — why now?” said Freddie Astbury, chief consultant at Thalidomide U.K. Agency, which represents people in Britain, where nearly 500 victims survive. He said British victims had received some compensation from the government and from distributors of thalidomide, but not enough.

Mr. Astbury, 53, who was born with no arms and no legs, said he believed that one reason for Mr. Stock’s speech was greater global awareness of issues affecting the disabled, manifested by the success of the Paralympic Games in London.

He pointed, too, to the Australian lawsuit, which legal experts say can result in new compensation awards for thalidomide victims running into tens of millions of dollars.

“We are glad the apology has been made,” he said. “But when you are disabled, it costs a lot of money. We are in our 50s, we need care. We need adaptations in our houses and cars, for starters. So if they’re serious, let’s get around the table and talk financial help.”

He added: “We didn’t ask to be born this way.”

lilady

Too bad, you were unsuccessful in obliterating every vestige of your demographics on the internet, Schnaut...before I noted your demographics.

I've already addressed the Vaccine Safety Datalink on numerous occasions, Schnaut.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/activities/vsd.html

How many children have been compensated for "vaccine injuries" in the USA... and where is the breakdown for each vaccine, that each child has been compensated for, Schnaut?

"Lilady will state that vaccines are safe and are not implicated in brain damage, but she will not address repeated queries regarding the existence of the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, the Vaccine Adverse Effect Reporting System, or Vaccine Safety Data Link."

Schnaut, VAERS is the "Vaccine Event Reporting System"...not the "Vaccine Adverse Effect Reporting System" as you have labeled VAERS.



otto

Parents: Note further the attempts of the vaccine mouthpiece:

"lilady - 8 minutes ago
Too bad, you were unsuccessful in obliterating every vestige of your demographics on the internet, Schnaut...before I noted your demographics."

Hmmmm. Interesting "comment." Lilady has "noted my demographics." Should I construe that as a threat? Perhaps she feels threatened by her inability to answer my very simple questions, so she responds with threatening language, hoping I will go away. Fat chance on that one.
Lilady will not address why she argues that vaccines are safe, even though they are made and promoted by companies that have knowingly engaged in criminal research fraud that caused the deaths and maiming of 10s of thousands of people. Merck and other companies, such as Glaxo, planted false data in peer reviewed publications. Called to the plaintiff's bar, they had to comply with discovery and produced documents demonstrating that they put money in front of patient safety. These same companies make the vaccines Lilady so fervently defends.

The VICP has paid out billions of dollars to families injured by the vaccines that Liladay insists are safe. If the vaccines are safe, the VICP is an unnecessary program, a waste of taxpayer dollars, and the vaccine makers should be just fine in civil court like every other medical speciality.

Right?

lilady

Otto...You do know that you have libeled me, don't know?

otto

Too bad Lillady wasn't around to defend the delousing properties of Xklon B, she would have been a natural.

Merck's various criminal enterprises (none so far tied to their vaccine division) caused iatrogenic deaths and injuries in somewhere between 40,000 and 400,000 humans. Merck planted erroneous data peer in reviewed journals; lied to researchers and regulators; falsified data; and paid over $1billion in criminal fines. Of course, Lilady notices that no one went to jail even though many died; she is safe there She is their loyal, unwavering mouthpiece, here to obfuscate the facts and hide the truth. Physicians who choose to defend Merck, knowing of the complete moral decay at the firm, are turning a willful, blind eye to the indefensible. Lillady is not alone; Dr Offit is a proud and eloquent defender of his corporate paymasters, no matter their transgressions. Whats a few tens of thousands of iatrogenic murders, more or less, in the scheme of things? Merck did say "Whoops! My Bad!" after all....
VAERS is reporting everyday at CDC.gov vaccine brain injury; VICP has paid out billions for brain injury, and will pay out billions more; and the nice folks at Merck cannot be sued if your kid dies in front of you after receiving a vaccine. VAERS and VICP exist because vaccine are so safe that vaccine makers say they cannot survive the vicissitudes of the plaintiff's bar in the same manner as other areas of medicine like oncology, cardiology, brain surgery....vaccines are so safe they deserve their own forum. Understand? It makes perfect sense in an Orwellian way, especially when that hot mamma Lillady is spewing out the nonsense. She is mesmerizing! Remember: in the world of vaccines, 2+2=5.

Merton

"Too bad Lillady wasn't around to defend the delousing properties of Xklon B, she would have been a natural."

Ah, a Godwin and misspelled to boot. You lose.

lilady

Merton:

As you know, I am a retired public health nurse/epidemiologist and still possess an unblemished license as a Registered Nurse. My husband is a retired attorney who worked for an international company (aktiengesellschaft...home office in Germany). I think I know who "Otto" is and I will pursue this libelous poster in his home country.

ASD Researcher

You two know each other ? From where ?

lilady

Otto has left the arena. He's been quite busy trying to obliterate his posts on the internet...too bad...I've already written down his demographics.

(Not An) ASD Researcher, Merton and I have posted on prior LaCrosse Tribune blogs, where I provided my *credentials*.

BTW, what are your credentials?

ASD Researcher

In the long and personal journey of raising my disabled son ... who likes his privacy as much as I do.

I am now asking you specifically to refrain from this avenue of enquiry as both my family and I value our privacy.

Sledderman

MA: Please enlighten me of how this study could have made it into 2 prestigious medical journals? Was this study not reviewed by other scientists? Why was it a journalist that found the fraud and not a fellow scientists?

Merton

The peer review process is not designed to find fraud.