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When one side proposes ways that human beings might begin to solve a deadly problem while the other side leaves it up to God, you know which side is right.

When one side proposes solution after solution to contain gun violence — and offers compromise after compromise to get something done — while the other side blocks action every time, you know which side is right.

When the president of the United States and his most incendiary media allies fuel hatred of those who are not white while his opponents say we should stand in solidarity with one another, you know which side is right.

E.J. Dionne Jr. mug

E.J. Dionne Jr. | The Washington Post

When one side brushes aside the dangers of racist and white nationalist terrorism while the other side says we need to be vigilant against all forms of terrorism, you know which side is right.

And when Americans are gunned down in incident after incident, when we are numbed by repeating the same sorrowful words every time, when we move within a news cycle from “something must be done” to “the Senate will block action” or “the politics are too complicated,” you know America’s democracy is failing and its moral compass is broken.

Our rancid political culture is, quite literally, killing our nation. And the problem is not caused by some abstraction called “polarization” or by “the failure of both sides to understand each other.” Those are the alibis of timid souls so intent on sounding “balanced” that they turn their eyes from the truth.

What is that truth? When it comes to gun violence and the need to confront white nationalism, one side is right and one side is wrong.

Until we face this, even two mass shootings within 24 hours will do nothing to galvanize action.

In El Paso, 20 people were killed at a shopping center on Saturday and 26 were wounded by a gunman who, according to police, appears to have posted an anti-immigrant screed online before the shooting.

Then at 1 a.m. on Sunday in Dayton, Ohio, another mass shooter left nine dead and 27 injured in area known for its lively nightlife that is heavily patrolled by police. The shooter was killed in less than a minute.

“Think about that minute,” said Dayton Mayor Nan Whaley. “The shooter was able to kill nine people and injure 26 in less than a minute.”

The gun-permissiveness crowd wants us not to think about that minute. It puts the lie to the gun lobby’s claim that having armed people nearby when a mass killer strikes is all we need to keep us safe.

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The wrong side in this debate does not want us to come together.

On the contrary, its goal after every mass shooting is to deflect and divide. Here’s what Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said when asked by reporters what we should do about gun violence. “Listen, there are bodies that have not yet been recovered,” Abbott replied. “I think we need to focus more on memorials before we start the politics.”

No, Abbott, reading from the NRA’s script, started “the politics” right at that moment, and it is an insidious form of politics. Simultaneously, he deflected by pretending it’s impolite to answer substantive questions and divided by saying that those who raise them disrespect the dead.

Nothing disrespects those who are slaughtered more than the political paralysis Abbott and those like him are encouraging.

Invoking God and calling for prayer should never seem obscene. But it is always obscene to use the Almighty to escape our own responsibility.

“God bless the people of El Paso Texas. God bless the people of Dayton, Ohio,” President Trump said in a Sunday morning tweet from his New Jersey golf club.

Yes, may God bless them.

But may God also judge Trump for a political strategy whose success depends on sowing racism, reaction and division. May God judge him for stoking false and incendiary fears about an immigrant “invasion,” the very word echoed by the manifesto that police suspect was the El Paso shooter’s. May God judge the president for cutting programs to fight white extremism at the very moment when the FBI is telling us that we are more at risk from white-nationalist terrorists than Islamist terrorists.

In pursuit of a mythical middle ground, the faint-hearted will counsel against calling out the moral culpability of those who divide, deflect and evade. Meanwhile, the rationalizers of violence will continue to claim that only troubled individuals, not our genuinely insane gun policies, are responsible for waves of domestic terrorism that bring shame on our country before the world.

But sane gun laws are the middle ground, and most gun owners support them.

Opposing the political exploitation of racism is a moral imperative.

And refusing to acknowledge that only one side in this debate seeks intentionally to paralyze us is the path of cowardice.

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E.J. Dionne is a columnist for The Washington Post.

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(83) comments

oldhomey

crank says he is not angry, and then angrily runs on for ten paragraphs, accusing people of saying things they have not said. And he makes up "facts" as he goes along: "It isn't simply gun-related violence and it isn't only in the U.S! How does Trump, guns, the NRA or any of the other things you blame figure into that? Trucks, cars, bombs, poison, chemicals and other weapons have been employed in addition to guns." It is only in America, dear friend, where we have a constant, consistent occurrence of mass murders in public places by means of military-style assault rifles readily available to millions of people in this country. No other country in the world is plagued with this. And in other countries in which there have been mass murder attacks, whether it is the relatively rare one with assault weapons, or driving trucks into crowds or what have you, there has been a rapid government response. There is no b.s. about "shame on you for politicizing this before we have grieved the dead", there is an all-out effort to get to the bottom of the source of the attack. In those countries they don't have to debate gun control, they already have it -- and yes, owning hunting and target guns are entirely legal and accepted. But if the attack seems to be a part of a larger organization, the hunt is on to ferret out the organization and smash it. We don't seem to have the problems with large underground organizations doing this violence in this country.

But we have one organization that is responsible for this insane proliferation and distribution of weapons that should not be in the public realm. It is called the NRA, and it is time to take it down and return it to the mission it had and proudly served as for a century or more, a gun safety group run by responsible hunters.



Now, do you want me to call you a name? I will be happy to. You earned it. You are a sleazeball, a person who skulks on these boards pretending that you are tracking down the actual names and information about people who disagree with you. I can't speak for at least two others you have done this two, martian and Physics, but you started it with me, and I am not intimidated at all. I know you are lying would-be bully. The shoe fits. Wear it.

martian2

well said homey. Crank is on the same page as hoaxer dude, ricky boy and others that are not taken seriously. His stupidity continues to grow daily.

crank

Check your facts before simply declaring, nuh uh



. ...other countries, mass killings, school shootings, nightclubs, some using guns, some using vehicles, chemicals, etc. It is not happening only in this country. You're mistaken. Check it out.



Logging on with your sock puppet account to agree with yourself does not change the facts I've presented. It only makes you appear more desperate in your obsession with those on your enemies list who have dared to disagree with you. Put the puppet away. #obsessed #armyofone #puppetking

martian2

oh you and your sock puppet story. that's enough to conclude you have no idea what you are saying. Talk about check you facts instead of just declaring nuh uh. If you have the proof that doesn't exist to show a double screen name for one person, show it. Or shut the h*ll up and start acting like an adult. You are facts just don't mix, never have.

crank

Despite the fact I know you can NEVER bring yourself to admit you're wrong...



Here's a list of relatively recent mass killings outside the US after weeding out acts of war/genocide or acts of terrorism perpetrated by members of that peaceful religion. سُبْحَانَ اللّٰہِ It is not happening only in this country and it didn't start with Trump. It isn't only guns or assault weapons. It isn't white supremists



All of these were sourced from from Wikipedia... This is not a comprehensive list but should serve to refute oldhomey's claim, "It is only in America, dear friend..." You're incorrect.



I did not include those instances (yes there were more than one) where the killers (non-military) used grenades for maximum death and destruction of innocents. I'm pretty sure there are grenade-control laws in the countries where these occurred but they killers still managed. I didn't check to see if there were, in fact, grenade control laws so decided to simply leave those off this list.



Canada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Calgary_stabbing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_van_attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Toronto_shooting

Germany>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_school_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Munich_shooting

Brazil

On the morning of October 5, 2017, Damião Soares dos Santos, a night watchman at daycare Centro Municipal de Educação Infantil Gente Inocente in Janaúba, Minas Gerais, Brazil, invaded a classroom where dozens of children between the ages of 3 and 7 were taking part in normal school activities. Santos locked the door and doused fuel on several children, employees and himself. He then ignited the fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jana%C3%BAba_Tragedy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_de_Janeiro_school_shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzano_school_shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goyases_School_shooting

New Zealand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchurch_mosque_shootings

Japan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagamihara_stabbings

Czech Republic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhersk%C3%BD_Brod_shooting

Mexico

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colegio_Americano_del_Noreste_shooting

Azerbaijan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_State_Oil_Academy_shooting

Turkey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Istanbul_nightclub_shooting

Russia

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Moscow_school_shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Polytechnic_College_massacre

oldhomey

Well, crank, before I answer you, I will remind you of this post from you earlier this year: "crank Apr 30, 2019 11:10am "Yes, homey... when you and your sock puppet visited my web links, I determined they were the same computer based on IP address, browser info, cookies, etc."



If you think people should log on to any website you provide a link for on these boards, I would advise them to think twice about it. You lied about what you said you did when I "visited" one of your web links, but there is no telling now, with your ruthless, underhanded nature, if you are more adept in tracking people who "visit" your proffered links. You have already proven yourself to be a sleazeballl, so why risk any sort of contact with you?



That said, I see you relied heavily on Wikipedia to list places that have had mass murders. I don't think anybody is denying that mass murders happen in all countries. They just don't happen with the frequency that they do in the U.S. So your list of many mass murders elsewhere, while mind-boggling, are ones that accumulated over a long period of time, but other countries, particularly other major industrial democracies, don't have them by the hundreds every year. If you want to source that, this, too, is from Wikipedia:



The United States has had more mass shootings than any other country.[23][24][25][26][27]



In one 2017 study published in Time magazine by criminologist Adam Lankford, it was estimated that 31% of public mass shootings occur in the US, although it has only 5% of the world's population.[28] The study concludes that "The United States and other nations with high firearm ownership rates may be particularly susceptible to future public mass shootings, even if they are relatively peaceful or mentally healthy according to other national indicators."[29]



Criminologist Gary Kleck criticized Adam's findings stating the study merely shows a proportional relationship, but fails to prove that gun ownership causes mass shootings. Kleck claims that Lankford has been unwilling to share a list of his cases, provide a list of the number of attacks per country, or even list his sources so that others can check his numbers. [30] Backlash from economist and gun rights advocate John Lott also raised objections to Lankford's methodology and refusal to share his data. He speculated that Lankford had overlooked a significant number of mass shootings outside the US, which if accounted for would adjust the nation's share closer to 2.88%, slightly below the world average. [31][32]



Mass shootings have also been observed to be followed by an increase in the purchase of weapons, but does not seem to create an increased feeling of needing guns in either gun owners nor non-owners. [33]

crank

So either you’re afraid I’m tracking you all over the Internet or I’m not capable of tracking you...you should make up your mind, yeah?







I knew you would come up with some sort of dodge just like you did when you posted as your sock puppet saying liberals “Never” do this sort of violent thing and now you say it is “only” a problem in the US, instead of admitting you’re wrong. You could copy and paste or search Wikipedia yourself. Instead of acknowledging this is an issue affecting countries worldwide, when faced with facts which contradict your statements, you simply cover your ears and say, “Nuh uh!”. I’m surprised you didn’t claim Wikipedia is an extremist right-wing web site. [rolleyes]



You are nothing if not predictable, old fussy.

martian2

obviously crank you are not capable of doing alot of things. Telling the truth is certainly one of them. You are nothing if not a predictable liar.

oldhomey

Dodge? I confronted your information directly, told you why it didn't work as an argument, Did I say mass murders is not a problem elsewhere in the world? Where did I say that? It is a problem wherever it occurs and whenever it occurs. Unfortunately, compared to the rest of the world, the magnitude of he problem in the USA is off the charts. Did I dodge by giving you bad information, or did I cite the very same source you were citing that showed that your position on this is wrong and mine is more accurate? Do you know what a dodge is? It is your conceited belief that I am afraid of you tracking me. You haven't done it yet, but you admit that you tried and continue to try to track people, and the way you do it is offering up links to websites on your posts -- at least you say this is how you do it -- and use software to identify those who "visit" those links to i.d. those people, their computer i.p. address and their computer accounts. It is a public service to warn others that this is how you operate, without a shred of guilt, apparently. Am I predictable? I predict you will not be able to post on these boards without hearing from me bringing up this appalling behavior on your part, big fella.

crank

I can't post on these board without triggering some sort of rant from you so your trolling is nothing new. Neither is your use of more than one account to seem like the others who agree with your brand of stupidity. I did note, however, that you have stopped accusing everyone else of using multiple accounts since I caught YOU doing this. You sure are spun up about denying this. I suppose now you have to continue using the other account because stopping would be a sort of admission, wouldn't it?



You say on one hand that I'm tracking you but in the next breath say that I cannot possibly. You say you are not afraid but then "warn" others to be afraid. You seem to be all over the place unable to recall from one comment to the next what you've said. For example, earlier you wrote ""It is only in America, dear friend..."" regarding this sort of gun violence but you refuse to look at the links which refute your argument because you're 'afraid' of being tracked then pretend you didn't write the earlier comment. I suppose you could take to Google as you have done here to locate and confirm those articles but you M.O. is 'deny and bicker'. Once pinned down, you start throwing insults or change the subject.



I've seen you do this so many times that I knew you'd do it here too. Dodge... At least others who have seen what you wrote can review the links and see that you're wrong even if you won't admit it. Nice try using the sock puppet account to add a couple of replies. #trolling


oldhomey

Well, you have an interesting and typically erroneous lexicon of definitions if you call my response to you "rants", crank. But I will give you this: You will not be able to post on these boards and pretend to be a man of reasonable opinions without me reminding you of your reprehensible behavior and what that was, spelled out with your own posts to that effect. You could admit you acted like a sleazeball, that you lied, and that would get you off the hook as far as I am concerned, but if you insist on being a bullying sleazeball, you will continue to be reminded of it by me.



I caught you using two screen names, crank and HolmenPackerFan, and that set you off on your no account story of me having more than one account. Your elaborate explanation of how you say you found this turned out to be untrue, as you could not provide any proof to bear it out. I knew that from the outset, as I am oldhomey, and that is my only account with this newspaper. But the nasty intent that you showed, saying you would go to the lengths you said you went to to track people on these boards, makes you a reprehensible actor, one who continues to imply that you are gathering information on people, like some guy in Tomah, who you say you have pulled up financial information on him of a personal nature. Have you? I don't know. I know you lied about finding my identity, but I can't speak to others you threaten.



Your defense of your position on your posting all the Wikipedia country reports of mass murders is at the level of juvenile playground "Is SO!"argumentation. I was clear that I am well aware that tragic mass murders are present in all societies around the world, but they simply do not compare to what happens in our society in terms of the numbers of them and the patterns occurence. We are five percent of the world population, but we have a huge percentage of the mass murders in the world as a whole. You can dispute that if you want, but it is a fact, one borne out by the very same source you used for your country reports, Wikipedia. Once pinned down, you try anything you can to distract from the truth of what I am saying.



Some of what you say here is beyond belief, the desperate spluttering of a liar who has been identified and cornered: "At least others who have seen what you wrote can review the links and see that you're wrong even if you won't admit it. Nice try using the sock puppet account to add a couple of replies. #trolling"

crank

Regarding the HolmenPackerFan thing, I will tell you again that I am not HolmenPackerFan and I've seen the thread you claim is "proof" when you say you caught me but were unable to answer me when I asked you questions about some things he said. He ain't me and I ain't him. After numerous claims others were using multiple accounts, I can only conclude he was messing with you; this based upon other comments from Holmen to you. You will go on believing what you will because you've demonstrated again and again your willingness to ignore facts you do not like.



You, however, I caught. It's funny....the things you accuse others of doing, you're doing yourself. Your spluttering, denials, protests and lying about this reveals the fact that you feel cornered after being revealed to everyone else here. The puppet master doth protest too much, me thinks. It's more than a little pathetic.



Regarding those who offer up their opinions here... You simply cannot abide anyone who offers a dissenting opinion. Your outright denials of fact which contradict your beliefs and constant insults, I can only conclude, are the result of some deeply-rooted insecurity which also exhibits in the need to reply to and troll (as if by reflex) anyone who doesn't share your political views. You've accused me of bullying. However, just like the guy who has claimed everyone else is using multiple accounts has been found to be doing this himself, the 'King of Kings' is the one really 'trying' to be the bully here (on 'your' boards) every single day. #obsession #enemieslist #getoffmyboards

oldhomey

So, once again, crank admits that he is trying to track down the identities of posters on these boards that he does not agree with, trying to discover their computer i.p. addresses, the accounts the computer use, and other personal information about that person. He doesn't explain why he wants this information, just that he is trying to do it. It started with me, but he failed to find anything about me. He says he found that I use more than one account on these boards, but of course when asked to show evidence, any single shred of evidence, he remains silent. And I am the bully for pointing this out? If I am, I will continue to be, because I find such behavior totally out of bounds. To err is human, but most people, when they discover they have done something wrong, apologize and move. To persist in this behavior is seriously nasty verging on evil, big fella. Stop it.



And I can't abide dissenting opinion? This is a public debate forum and was designed as such. People state their opinions and their reasons for holding them. Others who disagree are expected to voice their dissenting opinions and their reasons for holding them. I fully embrace this idea, and I abhor the thought that somebody who cannot win a debate would threaten to expose the identities of those who hold opinions that oppose his. That is off the boards, and a clear declaration that the would-be "exposer" is totally lacking in honor and ethics. And by the way, crank, the one thing that I cannot abide is the use of completely false and fabricated information to buttress false arguments. That is something that always inspires a reply from me, and often they are not completely gentle responses. Does that bruise your ego. Yours should be deep purple by now for all the well-earned flack that has been thrown on you by several posters here, including me, big fella.

crank

Yet you continue lying, using multiple accounts and these attempts to harass and intimidate to force people off ‘your’ boards. If you cannot apologize for your behavior, at least YOU might make some attempt to stop doing it and reform. You seem like a giant hypocrite accusing me of bullying and intimidation while you admit that you engage in this every single day. Your self-delusion about what you’re doing here reveals you are s truly disturbed and fragile person. Get help!

oldhomey

Nothing changes, big fella. It all hinges on your statement: "Yet you continue lying, using multiple accounts and these attempts to harass and intimidate to force people off ‘your’ boards. " Provide some evidence -- any evidence whatsoever -- that you have to substantiate these claims. Put up or shut up, crank. It is that simple. A suggestion: Should I "visit" one of your Wikpedia links so that you can use your software once again in trying to identify me? If I did, would you offer the proof you find? Would you admit it if you discovered you were wrong? Would you apologize for lying about all of this from the outset, which is the actual truth in all of this?

crank

Clearly, you STILL have no idea what you’re saying.



Do you imagine I control or even suggested I control or have access to servers all over the internet? Click all the Wikipedia links you want! I have no access to or control over them to use software to track you or anyone else. You really are being overtaken by your paranoid fantasies, oldhomey.


oldhomey

Well, crank, what is the truth when it comes to you. Now you say:



"Do you imagine I control or even suggested I control or have access to servers all over the internet? Click all the Wikipedia links you want! I have no access to or control over them to use software to track you or anyone else."



Here is what you said in the past, statements so astonishingly without regard to propriety or ethics, I saved them:



"crank Apr 30, 2019 11:10am

"Yes, homey... when you and your sock puppet visited my web links, I determined they were the same computer based on IP address, browser info, cookies, etc. I’m not sure why you feel the need to do this but your continued denials combined with accusations that others are using fake accounts is quite pathetic . . . "



You made later boasts about doing these very things you now say you are incapable of doing, i.e."



"crank May 12, 2019 6:22am "Because putting up those details, oldhomey, is something I said I would not do. I will not post your IP address or your location or your name or any other details. Though you call my claims 'menacing', I don’t see how anyone but you could believe that is true given the fact I said I had not and will not make additional attempts to determine your real identity nor would I Dox you . . . "



Maked up your mind, crank. Either you say can do these things or admit you can't and apologize for suggesting in the past that you were doing these things. No I am not "really . . . being overtaken by . . . paranoid fantasies". I knew you were lying about finding out anything about me, and I was clear about that from the outset. I was astonished you would be making these claims. I asked you to put up or shut up, and you clearly could not put up. Perhaps eventually you will apologize or shut up.


martian2

using wikipedia to back up your arguments tells of how desperate you are. Anyone can edit wikipedia and put in what they want. That's probably what you did crank. Like I said, you and facts just don't mix, never did.

crank

Good answer, sock puppet! That’s even better than claiming Wikipedia is an extremist right-wing web site, oldhomey. [lol] Saying “Nuh uh!” is a quite a persuasive argument... [whistling]

martian2

right back at ya there crack head! Nuh uh! Now try using facts and real world data instead of wikipedia. the world is waiting. Facts and crack head just don't mix.

crank

Hmmm... Desperate? [huh] Using as argument the suggestion I have authored or edited these Wikipedia articles seems a little desperate. It is a desperate sould who can never admit he's wrong, and goes to such lengths to deny facts.



Oldhomey seems to be using this 'useful idiot' account to great effect here. You should be embarrassed. [sneaky] His denials have included something along the lines of, (paraphrasing) "Martian isn't me. Martian is too dumb to be me!"

martian2

nice try crank or holmenpackerfan, whoever that is, but your paraphrasing is about as childish as it gets. It doesn't work, never has. The only useful idiot here is you. although I have yet to figure out the useful part yet, if it exist. Getting taken to the wood shed for using wikipedia has got your hackles up. Too bad so sad, next time either put up or shut up.

johnnybragatti

As long as Trump says "It"s OK, as long as he gives the impression,that it"s alright., when an unstable person, gets a whacko idea "bout killing a fellow human being ,Trump can help him make that terrible decision and he will, as long as he is allowed to give his racist nationwide rants. Is that blood on Trump"s little hands? You better believe it.

Trump reversed a law, banning the mentally ill, from owning a handgun. That is coming back to haunt him.

Rick Czeczok

Stop the rhetoric on this board. Change needs to start with each and every one of us. Let's just calm ourselves and remember those who are dead or injured. Then move on to correct this injustice of life itself.

Redwall

So, then, why isnt Dionne decrying the Ohio shooter as the left wing nut job? Dionne here is proven guilty of what he (wrongly) claims others are guilty of.

Climatehoax

Get this: If you’ve spent some time in jail, you are much more likely to vote Democrat, according to a new study published in the Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science.

johnnybragatti

Hard to fix stupid...climatedope must have an I Q. of about "2" ? and that is a major league compliment. If this whackjob has a gun or even scarier :"guns". The FBI needs to know, as these whackjobs are not a joke. When you see climatedope"s fake name ,one needs to think of Dylan Roof....and that"s just for starters.

Climatehoax

One more thing, if they can ban guns with large magazines, they can ban the deer hunting rifle, THEY WILL NOT STOP, a foot in the door, give an inch, they’ll take a mile, let the camel put his nose in the tent and soon he’ll be completely in, get the drift?

johnnybragatti

Now here t"is the climatehoax, a mass murderer waiting to happen . See him shaking and sweating,as thoughts of confiscation begin to swirl. We certainly hope the FBI is surveying him . His manifesto ain"t much different,than the previous. Pretty scary

Pamela T

Trump and the modern GOP are the *LAST* people that I trust to protect my Second Amendment rights.



As soon as Trump and his worshipers realize that their scapegoats and intended victims can use firearms to defend themselves too, *TRUMP* will lead the charge in calling for the disarming of anyone that he doesn't decree to be a "true American." Not unlike what that Austrian-born guy did when he camem to power in Germany.



I'll even predict how Trump and today's GOP will go about it. They will expand upon a tactic that they are already using quite freely and carelessly: declaring anyone that they don't approve of to be "mentally ill." Don't like their sexual orientation? They'll declare them "mentally ill" and use that as the pretense to confiscate dissenters' guns. Just watch.

DMoney

Wow. Ok. So with whom do you trust your 2nd amendment rights?

martian2

I know who I don't trust, the NRA, the GOP, gun manufacturers, white nationalists, Trump and bigots.

Climatehoax

293 murdered in Chicago in 2019. Blacks doing the killing, no column about that, let a white guy kill someone and it’s major news, I smell a racist.

When one side creates class warfare by promising Medicare to illegals for free when I’ve paid for it for 48 years, and the other side wants it stopped, we know who’s right

When one side promises free education, free, housing, free social services, and protection from deportation, and the other side wants THAT stopped, we know who’s right.

When one side expects people to get a job, and the other side try’s to buy votes with taxpayer sponsored freebies, we know which side is right.

When our president cut middle class taxes by 5% and the other side wants to raise taxes to give to illegals we know who’s right.

Fight to keep your guns people, because if these liberal A-wholes ever get power, there’ll be the sane conservatives on one side and Antifa on the other, and we know who’s right

PhysicsIsFun

Crank and ClimateDope take the prize today for the most insane comments with Dmoney coming up a close third. Trump supporters are the "very best people". (heavy sarcasm)

crank

[yawn] #troll #enemieslist

DMoney

My comments were asking an honest and productive open question, and proving martian2 wrong. What's so insane about that?

Climatehoax

So you think it’s a GOOD idea to give Medicare to people who haven’t paid a penny for it.

Do You think it’s possible and decent to make the American taxpayer to support the vote buying ideas of the DemoRats ?

We are reminded that SS and Medicare are about to end. Is it ok with you that those two programs run out of money because they are used to buy votes, and the people paying in to them are going to get shafted? Do you honestly support the DemoRat ideas? Why are we told SS and Medicare are running out of money but welfare, food stamps, subsidized housing, and a ton of other programs that take from the taxpayer(who receives NO benefit) NEVER run out of money.

How can things like this not bother anyone with a brain.?

DemoRats always want a level playing field(that’s why there are approximately 170 programs for blacks ONLY, not a single one for whites only in our country). Are the DemoRat ideas really fair to the people footing the bills, oh I forgot, whites mostly pay the bills, so it doesn’t matter. Real fair libbys.

martian2

locked and loaded hoaxer dude. Get your pea shooter out hoaxer, they ban large magazines next thing you know they will ban books. If they ban assault weapons next thing you know they will ban pencil erasers! Will it never end! Go white nationalism, right hoaxer. Nothing wrong with that. (sarcasm)

DMoney

Let's hear some suggestions that are: constitutional, logical, effective, and timely (can begin to work soon). Go.

PhysicsIsFun

Ban assault weapons with high capacity magazines.

DMoney

I'm good with that. Passed, next.

Monteee

Universal legislation for and enforcement of state and federal background checks on ALL buyers of guns. Commercial sellers AND private sellers (like gun shows) must ALL do background checks on every potential buyer. NO exceptions. Serious legal penalties for those who no not comply.

DMoney

Absolutely, passed. Next.

oldhomey

Ban ownership of high capacity ammo magazines from all weapons, including pistols. Vastly increase public outreach for mental illness treatment and support of families dealing with mentally ill family members. As citizens, we should all call out people who offer up red herring arguments against gun control such as those posited by DMoney in his 10:28am post.

DMoney

No red herring. Define high capacity for pistols. My Glock has a 17 round mag. If someone breaks into my home, I want all 17 of those hollow points. Are you talking drums/extensions? If so, pass. If not, rejected.

martian2

no more than ten rounds needed in any civilian gun. You can have more magazines loaded and ready to go if you are that bad of a shot. Anything that turns semi-automatics into automatic weapons should be banned! Domestic violence offenders, NO guns to that person ever! Same with felons!

oldhomey

Hope you are training your daughters with your guns, bucko. I agree with martian, ten rounds, max. How many home invasions in La Crosse County, anyway? Most people shot in private homes are domestic affairs. Keep that Glock away from your wife.

DMoney

No deal. Keep the capacity stock to manufacturer specs. I'm good with no modifications (it's illegal to saw off a shotgun barrel) but limiting magazine size from factory settings is too intrusive.

PhysicsIsFun

For duck hunting you have to put a plug in a shotgun to reduce its capacity from 5 to 3.

DMoney

Yes but the overall shell capacity isn't limited. Can use that same shotgun for home defense later that night.

DMoney

I don't care if there are zero home invasions in the history of la Crosse county. It could happen. And if it does, and if you have no weapon, you are at complete mercy of the invader. The peace of mind alone is invaluable.

oldhomey

Right, D. Perhaps we should pass a law that every household shall have on rapid-fire assault rifle for each member of the household over 18 years of age, just in case there is a home invasion. That certainly will reduce the violence in this country, and it will make neighborhood arguments about garbage cans in the alley or lawns left unmown or noisy late night parties much more exciting. These weapons do not belong in the hands of private citizens. Full stop. End of story. They are military weapons designed to kill a maximum number of people in a minimum period of time. The are not sport guns. They are not guns of self defense. The proliferation of them, thanks to the gun manufacturing lobby, mainly the NRA, has inculcated an obscene cult of supposed power and manliness by encouraging ownership of these things. It is unprecedented. Wild Bill Hickcock, Wyatt Earp and all the other legendary lawmen from America's violent 19th century past would, I imagine, be dumbfounded by the violence and the glorifying of it that goes on in this country. And you, sir, with your strutting attitude about your Glock and its out-sized ammo magazine, are a member of that sick society. Arming tens of millions of people to the teeth on the eensy, teensy chance that somebody might invade their home. You have a hollow head along with your hollow points.

martian2

that type of paranoia from D is what the gun lobby is counting on. "Oh the piece of mind is invaluable" is exactly what the NRA uses to usurp common sense and arm America to the teeth. If we can't even go to a Walmart anymore without being paranoid of shooters, everyone carrying a gun every where is going to make things worse. We no longer will live in a land of liberty and freedom, but in paranoia and division.

martian2

well said E.J., well said! Now let's cue in the right wing gun worshipers to chime in and talk more cowardice while more Americans are dead at the hands of fanatical right wingers. Funny how you never hear about a liberal progressive going bonkers and carrying out a mass shooting. Yes one side is totally wrong.

DMoney

"Omar Mateen, the shooter who killed 49 people at a nightclub in Orlando, Florida, in 2016, was registered as a Democrat in 2006. He voted in the Florida primary in 2016, according to reporting from Politico.



A dating profile for Chris Harper Mercer, who killed nine people at a community college in Oregon in 2015, said he was a Republican, according to reporting from CBS News. There was no evidence of his political affiliation beyond the profile.



A friend of Aaron Alexis, who killed 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard in 2013, said in a CNN interview that the shooter was "more of a liberal type." There were no other reports of his political affiliation.



Politicians were the victims of a couple of recent shooting rampages that weren’t on our list of 19 mass shootings.



In 2017, 66-year-old James Thomas Hodgkinson shot and injured six people at a congressional baseball game in Virginia — nearly killing House Majority Whip Steve Scalise. Hodgkinson volunteered for the presidential campaign of Democrat Bernie Sanders and apparently targeted the Republican team.



In 2011, 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner opened fire in Tucson at an event hosted by Rep. Gabby Giffords, an Arizona Democrat. Loughner killed six and injured 13 others, including Giffords. Authorities reported that he was obsessed with Giffords."



Politifact

PhysicsIsFun

And your point is?

DMoney

." Funny how you never hear about a liberal progressive going bonkers and carrying out a mass shooting. Yes one side is totally wrong."



Martian2

martian2

exactly what is your point. just because one person voted in a political primary doesn't say squat about that person. Someone saying a person is "more of a liberal type" is no proof of anything. Data I need raw data! Loughner was obsessed with the Giffords, so what does that prove? Data I need data.

DMoney

. "Funny how you never hear about a liberal progressive going bonkers and carrying out a mass shooting. Yes one side is totally wrong."

- You

oldhomey

You have heard liberals, progressives and even enlightened GOPers "going bonkers" after every damned mass shooting coming down the pike, dear boy, no matter the professed political leanings of the shooter. You seem to be blind and deaf at the same time when it suits your purposes.

PhysicsIsFun

It is true that violence is not necessarily linked to political philosophy. It is also true that during the 60s and 70s most violent political types were on the far left e.g. The Weathermen, Symbionese Liberation Front etc.. Currently most political violence in the USA is linked to the right. Timothy McVeigh was the most dramatic example and it continues today with this guy in El Paso. This is just fact. I'm not saying there are not violent people on the far left, but they are just outnumbered.

oldhomey

And, Physics, it should be pointed out that Demcrats, liberals and progressives in the late 60s and early 70s were just as horrified by the violent radical groups as everybody else, supporting law enforcement efforts to track them down, prosecute them and jail them.

DMoney

Fair enough.

martian2

No proof on Omar, strike one D, Jared Lee again no proof on him, strike two, A friend said of Alexis is not proof, strike three and you are out of here!!!

crank

Never say never, oldhomey/martian... Connor Betts (the Dayton shooter) appears to have been an "extreme left-wing" liberal progressive, according to CNN. (oops?) Don't let that get in the way of your silly attempt to make this tragedy a partisan thing.



"(CNN)A Twitter account that appears to belong to Dayton mass shooter Connor Betts retweeted extreme left-wing and anti-police posts, as well as tweets supporting Antifa, or anti-fascist, protesters.

..."




https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/05/us/connor-betts-dayton-shooting-profile/index.html



I fully expect you and the trib-libs will call it "whataboutism" but you did use the word "never". Of course you'd like to forget about James Hodgkinson the extreme left-wing shooter of Republicans.



"(CNN) James T. Hodgkinson, the man identified as shooting a Republican member of congress and four others on Wednesday morning, was a small business owner in Illinois who defined himself publicly by his firm support of Bernie Sanders' progressive politics -- and his hatred of conservatives and President Donald Trump."



https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/homepage2/james-hodgkinson-profile/index.html



You were saying? One side is totally wrong? Remove your foot from your mouth and hush up now, dumb dumb. [blink]

martian2

yes one side is totally wrong there cranky. White supremacists ideology and the KKK and the Nazi movement, all far right wing fanatics, are totally wrong. Society cannot tolerate them one iota. Legalizing high capacity assault style weapons is wrong, totally wrong. Not having universal background checks is wrong, totally wrong. A twitter account that appears to belong to a shooter is not proof of anything Cranky one. Far right wing fanaticals commit more of these mass shootings than liberals by at least ten to one. That is a fact there crank, no matter how hard you keep looking.

crank

Facts? You were the one who used the word "never", sockpuppet. Now it's 10 to 1? What happened to NEVER? [huh]



Again, it's apparent what you believe and what is true are quite different things. If you disagree, take it up with your beloved CNN. Based on what they said/reported (not me), you are wrong in your assessment that the 'other' side are the only ones picking up guns, going "bonkers" and carrying out mass shootings. Clearly you're just as spun-up and unstable as these other mental cases. There is no telling how long before you post your manifesto, oldhomey, then go on a rampage with your army of imaginary, sock-puppet friends. When will you drop this act, puppet king?

#armyofone #voicesinyourhead #socksonyourhands [ninja]

PhysicsIsFun

Crank you need to calm down and quit writing like a crazy man. I would hate to see you blow a gasket.

crank

[yawn] #troll

DMoney

What about the person crank referenced and the several I referenced? Rarely is someone so overwhelmingly wrong on these boards as you are here... and I am thoroughly enjoying it. What's best is that you are incapable of admitting it, like I've done and like homey has done in the past. Pure ego.

DMoney

Oldhomey, our replies were in response to Martians outlandish claim that ONLY right-wingers go on shooting rampages. Please, connect the dots and follow along.

martian2

well of course I mean liberals "virtually never" commit these mass shootings. You take things so literally there crank and D. And by the way I never watch CNN for any news. The fact remains that fanatics, especially those on the far right, are far more likely to commit these mass shootings as the last couple weeks have shown. Guns and white supremacists are a bad mix any way you look at it.

oldhomey

This is another example of serving up red herrings to distract from the issue at hand. Both crank and D have attempted it on this string.



It is the the right-wing that pines for the good old days of the 1050s. It is the right wing that leads the charge to stop any sort of sensible gun laws to control the gun mayhem that began in the mid 1970s and has picked up steam and velocity ever since.



Why? I think it can be traced to the hijacking of the National Rifle Association in the 1970s by people in the employment of the gun and ammunition industry. We may have already had higher murder rates than most advanced industrial nations in the 1950s, but we did not have this continuous, terrible, heinous toll of mass murders.



The NRA and its associated gun lobby groups are responsible for that, buying off politicians right and left to allow rapid-fire assault weapons and high capacity magazines for those weapons to flood our country by the millions, making the gun industry billions.



The gun industry gins up phony constitutional defenses for this while glamorizing ownership of these weapons, a particularly hazardous proposition when unstable, often suicidal individuals see a sick and sickening opportunity in these weapons to pose themselves as heroes for a larger cause while in fact they are simply taking a coward's way out as suicides by police action.



It does not matter, crank and D, if these sick people profess to be white supremacists, liberals, fascists or Communists. They are sick individuals and this system of providing these sorts of weapons to the public enables this insanity that is being visited on the entire nation. These weapons are designed for one thing and one thing only -- to kill a maximum number of people in the shortest time possible. They are not hunting weapons. They are not target weapons. They are not self-defense weapons. They should not be allowed in public society. Period. Full stop. Your arguments about whaddabout this guy or that guy are totally irrelevant. The argument is about why do we allow these weapons to exist among us.

DMoney

Please clarify for us:. Are they sick or are they white nationalists? If you go with sick (the correct answer) you are standing in stark contrast to your idealogical base.

oldhomey

Gosh, D. I think you are beginning to understand. Yes, mass shooters are sick. The reasons they state or hold dear in their fevered minds about why they are trying to kill the maximum number of people in a minimal amount of time is not important. It is, however, important to understand that others can set off these sick minds with inflammatory language and actions, and those people, including a certain president of the United States, should be held accountable when it happens. And no, before you and crank get your hackles up, I am not suggesting that any presidential tweets set off the Dayton shooter. He seems to have been inspired by the El Paso shooter, however, and there seems to be a direct line between presidential rhetoric and this man's so-called manifesto.

PhysicsIsFun

Sick does not necessarily mean mentally ill by the conventional definition it means sick in that they are OK with killing people, sometimes many people. Their reasons go from the personal to the political. Our president should not be using rhetoric that inflames the passions of twisted individuals. He should not be demonizing individuals or groups. Unfortunately he does that all of the time.

crank

Hmmmm... the words “practice what you preach” come to my mind after reading your comment, Physics. [innocent]

PhysicsIsFun

So I should practice what I preach? Am I triggering you? You certainly sound like you are angry about something. Does it bother you that your beliefs are being questioned? Just admit that there are right wing, white supremacists in the world and in this country that are being inspired by our president to harm others. Also admit that the gun industry with its lobbying group, the NRA, is providing these people with weapons to maximize their damage, and the Republican Party refuses to do anything to fix it. This is all because the NRA funds the Republican Party. But you like the Republican Party would rather deflect the blame to other things.

crank



No, I'm not angry. It seems you might be the one becomeing angry that your beliefs and opinions are being questioned. The notion you believe it's me who is angry seems to reflect your own feelings. Projecting?



Should you be demonizing individuals or groups? You've done it here in this very message thread. If it is OK for you to do it, why not anyone else including the president? You called me insane if for no other reason than I've disagreed with you politically.



This sort of trolling doesn't make me angry. I have so little regard for the typical liberal's formulaic response, e.g. 'only right wingers are violent', 'Trump is the cause of mass shootings.', 'Republicans are all racist.' that it amuses me. What your rants and trolls do is cement my conclusions that liberal ideology is devoid of reason. If I offer legitimate disagreement, name-calling, insults and this sort of trolling result. #triggered



I will admit there are right-wing extremists but I disagree that they are inspired specifically by Donald Trump. I also believe there are left-wing extremists who engage in violence;e.g. antifa. Who inspires them? I cannot name or blame one individual on the left. You may howl and disagree like oldhomey/martian but there are individuals with violent tendencies at BOTH ends of the political spectrum. It isn't only one side. Only a fool or and self-deluded ideologue would deny this. Did the violence and mass killings begin with Trump? No... Will the violence end when Trump is no longer president? I don't believe it will. If Democrats controlled the White House and both houses of Congress, would laws be enacted which would end gun violence? Nope!



A common thread to the violence is the disturbed nature of the individuals who engage in the violence. It isn't simply gun-related violence and it isn't only in the U.S! How does Trump, guns, the NRA or any of the other things you blame figure into that? Trucks, cars, bombs, poison, chemicals and other weapons have been employed in addition to guns. The people who are doing this are disturbed, mentally ill. You call this deflecting but it is, nevertheless, factual. Only after these events do teachers, doctors, family and friends come forward to say something like, "Yes, he was very disturbed! He was a loner with a kill list...", etc. There are often indications of this sort of behavior long before any incident occurs. It isn't always violence toward others; sometimes it's suicide.



I would wager that any attempt to enact legislation which allowed people identified as mentally ill with violent tendencies to be 'red-flagged' for the protection of themselves or others would be opposed as a violation of their civil rights. It would be done in the same hysterical manner as the left objects laws requiring voters to present ID to exercise their right to vote and in the same hysterical manner some on the right oppose gun restrictions as a violation of their rights under the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution.



Before you try to make this even MORE personal by making assumptions about me, I am not a member of the NRA nor do I own any firearms. There are presently laws controlling posession and use of firearms. Murder is against the law. Brandishing a firearm without firing it is against the law. Even using a firearm as a club to harm someone is against the law. It occurs to me that the only people those laws will imapct are those who abide by such laws and observe the constructs of civilized society. Clearly, those people who are inclined to harm others or break the law are certainly not going to affected by any new ones.



I'll provide an example...Here in La Crosse, the lines are drawn and people have formed up on sides when the issue of local judges seeing repeat offenders before them who have been picked up with firearms in violation of their parole or bond. Judges, in turn, let them back out onto the street. These are laws which exist NOW but those who violate the laws and have demonstrated their inclination to use firearms against other people certainly has not been taken seriously by these judges. If they did they wouldn't grant individuals bond again after violating the terms of their parole or bond repeatedly by being found in possession of a firearm when the law prohibits it.



Acting Police Chief Rob Abraham has been vocal and critical about this problem but it is telling that many of the same trib-libs who demand more gun control don't have a problem with judges who turn criminals who use firearms back out onto the street. Instead, they criticize Rob Abraham for going public with his concerns even as a cop is shot this week by one of those repeat offenders. It becomes an issue of political ideology, right vs. left rather than one of reason. You seem to be no exception.



Go ahead! Call me a name now.

PhysicsIsFun

Crank I admitted that this sort of stuff happens on both sides. I personally lost a friend to the Sterling Hall Bombing in 1970. Robert Fassnacht was killed in the bombing done by left wing radicals. I was finishing my bachelors degree in electrical engineering and physics and knew him as a TA in several courses I took. His major professor, Joseph Dillenger, was one of my favorite professors. His lab was destroyed and his career was ruined.

I agree that guns are far too available in our country. I think the 2nd amendment has been twisted into something far beyond its original intent. It has become a huge profit center for gun manufacturers. I do not agree that this is only a mental health issue. It seems that you have to be mentally ill to kill lots of people, but words matter and Trump uses words that correspond to the same language used to radicalize disaffected individuals. Obama or no other modern president ever did that. You have to go back to before the early 60s to listen to similar rhetoric. Maybe he doesn't mean to do it, but he is president and should know better. White supremacists are ecstatic referencing things that Trump says and tweets. What more proof do you need when this is the case? I never called you names. I said your comment was insane, and I stand by that. You and Dmoney (and ClimateDope) are too wrapped up in the silly argument about who said what to see the big picture.

martian2

wow cranks rambling on and on into areas that aren't even remotely relevant to this column. His whining and crying about how unfair the left has treated him or society is almost heart breaking. Almost. Every country has mentally ill, every country has video games, every country has people that aren't religious or cares about others. But we are the only industrialized country with far more mass shootings than any other country. The statistics tell the truth. Its the easy availability of guns in this country, coupled with angry hate talk by the far right that give us the title of the deadliest country. read it and weep there cranky: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

crank

[yawn] #oldhomeyspuppetshow #troll

martian2

come on crank head, enough of the childish name calling. read it and weep. I offer proof positive and again you can't handle it. Winning!

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