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The moment you saw that horrific photo — a father and his tiny daughter, lying face-down in the reedy shallows of the Rio Grande — you knew your mind’s eye would never let you stop seeing that image.

It was her tiny, trusting right arm that kept you staring.

She had been on her father’s back as he swam, secured beneath his dark T-shirt that covered them both. Lying there lifelessly in the riverbank reeds, her head is still poked out through his stretched neck-hole — and so is her tiny arm.

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Martin Schram

It is still draped around the neck of the only hero she ever knew in life.

Oscar Alberto Martinez Ramirez, 25, from El Salvador, had hoped he could assure his 23-month-old daughter, Valeria, a wonderful new life in the United States.

But ultimately, the river claimed him, just as it has hundreds of others. They were washed back against the reedy riverbank across from Brownsville, Texas.

Now history will see them forever, in that instantly iconic photo, taken for the Associated Press by journalist (and next year’s surefire Pulitzer Prize winner) Julia Le Duc.

Her photo should be remembered forever, along with a handful of others that changed the course of history. (Just as we can never forget that photo of the terrorized Vietnamese girl fleeing a U.S. napalm attack, running down a road, naked and sobbing.)

On Wednesday, it was the Republican chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, Sen. Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, who was choking back tears as he stood on the Senate floor and addressed his colleagues:

“I realize tragedies happen all over this country — all over the world. I don’t want to see another picture like that on the U.S. border. I hope that picture alone will catalyze this Congress, this Senate, this committee to do something.”

Really? Perhaps Sen. Johnson, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and their colleagues ought to think about the image they would be seeing today if Martinez and little Valeria had made it safely to the Brownsville, Texas, riverbank.

Here’s that What-If video: We might see President Donald Trump’s border patrol loyally executing their commander-in-chief’s orders by removing Valeria’s arm from the security of dad’s neck, then removing her from the safety of her dad’s back — and finally removing her from her father and hero.

Perhaps we’d see them take Valeria to be warehoused, wearing only what she had on, in a place filled with strangers. Maybe she’d be cared for, but maybe not so much, and maybe not at all. (Just like the hundreds of children in that Clint, Texas, facility who were kept unbathed, in filthy conditions, where children had to care for each other.)

We haven’t seen the Senate Republicans protest the Trump policies or propose a comprehensive new plan to deter this mass migration by fixing the problem at its source — inside the failing countries of El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala.

That’s because congressional Republicans are fearful that if they challenge Trump they’ll end up facing a Trump-picked primary election challenger.

That’s why they won’t even demand that Trump stop repeating what fact-checkers agree is a falsehood: Trump claims President Barack Obama created the policy of separating children from parents at the Mexican border. Not so.

Trump’s then-Homeland Security Secretary (later White House chief of staff) John Kelly disclosed on CNN, in March 2017, he was considering separating kids from parents to deter illegal immigration; later, Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced it.

Trump and congressional Republicans know why thousands upon thousands are willing to endure the pain and suffering of walking more than 1,000 miles, toward an uncertain outcome — just to flee those three countries.

They live in fear of murderous gangs, are unprotected by corrupt cops and officials, and are jobless or earning below-poverty wages.

But facing all that, Trump has done precisely the wrong thing. Instead of a bold program to address the crisis at its source, Trump spitefully cut off all new aid funding for those three countries. And of course Trump has ducked and denied responsibility for the consequences of his wrongheaded policies.

On Wednesday, Trump actually blamed Democrats for causing the death of Oscar Martinez and Valeria — because, he insisted, Democrats won’t enact his demands for laws limiting asylum approvals. Also he has vastly slowed the processing of asylum requests at the border.

Tragically, when Martinez and his family arrived at the international bridge, it was closed. And he learned the backlog of asylum applicants was hopelessly huge. He saw no good option.

That was when Martinez chose to put Valeria on his back and swim for it.

Perhaps this dad and daughter we never got to meet can help us make America great again.

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Martin Schram, an op-ed columnist for Tribune News Service, is a veteran Washington journalist, author and TV documentary executive. Readers may send him email at martin.schram@gmail.com

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(62) comments

Redwall

The Fibune can't pack enough mis-information into any one day. Its such a site to see this anti-American column printed on Independence Day. Only the Memorial Day non-observance by the Tribune was in poorer taste. And to Mr Schram, note we lure these illegals here with free food, free housing, free education including college, free healthcare and jobs. They are arriving by the hundreds of thousands and yes some will perish along the way, like this little girl who having made it to the U.S., jumped back into the Rio Grande River rather than be left on the bank while her father went to bring her mother across the river. A tragedy. There was an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal about the Border Patrol Search and Rescue Squad having saved 584 illegals in the Tucson sector alone since October.

PhysicsIsFun

Please give examples of free food, free housing, free education including college, free healthcare for these desperate people? The column was published on July 2 not the 4th and the date of the column corresponds with the date of the deaths. Should he have waited a few months to write it? Your hard hearted attitude is so typical of Trump supporters. Empathy is something that some people never develop.

DMoney

It's your responsibility to stay informed on current events and news. There is recent and widely available coverage about pending laws (luckily most of them state laws) for providing illegal immigrants with free healthcare and education. You need to put a little effort in before asking someone to prove something. We have this going on right here, by the way. Evers has pushed for in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. That's a benefit that should exist only for WI kids. Now being extended to kids who have no legal right to even be here. It's outrageous.

oldhomey

Yes, D, it is simply outrageous. Just as it is outrageous that the U.S. is short on labor and corporate America tacitly but eagerly welcomes the influx of illegal immigrants to fill jobs that otherwise would not be filled, thus allowing the economy go forward. And given the reality of this large population of undocumented workers and their families in this country, is it outrageous to understand that most aren't going anywhere because kicking them out would be a disaster to the economy? But it is outrageous, I guess, that we would try to intercede with reality and try to give the children of these undocumented workers the chance to improve their lives through education, the classic immigrant experience, and thus make a much larger contribution to our society than they could as impoverished, uneducated members of a permanent underclass. That would be pretty outrageous when we have much better alternatives.

oldhomey

He won't, Physics,, because Red doesn't want to use up any more of his free seven posts a month to these boards. He could post more, but he is too cheap to subscribe to the Tribune.

oldhomey

By the way, D, on another string under a different column I spent a considerable amount of time providing you with the sources of data I referred to in a reply to you that you requested. I respectfully asked you subsequently to do the same for me , but you seem to have overlooked that request somehow, or perhaps chose to ignore it. I repeat it here: One: "In the past month, there has been national outrage at the flying of gay pride flags from public buildings. I'm talking millions and millions of people offended (myself not included--I frankly don't care)." Millions upon millions, or right wing commentators on your right-wing echo chamber websites. You obviously have the data on millions upon millions. Let's see it, please. Two. "A significant part of the US population, isolated from the very government agencies and politicians that are supposed to represent them neutrally. " A very strange comment, indeed, even coming from you. What is this supposed to be saying, and please back up your explanation with some data. Three. "Now, a very very short time later, one of the largest and most iconic companies in the country publicly remove and ban the sale of apparel with the original US flag on it, at the singular complaint of a half black man who was already a lightning rod for controversy. Add those things together and what do you see? I see it. " You don't explain what you "see", D, but if you get around to explaining it, please give us some data that you are seeing what millions upon millions of others are seeing, too. Four. "I don't know how engaged you are on social media but the hornet's nest has been kicked. I see people I know who are independent and even left leaning fighting back against this cultural earthquake." I am not very engaged on social media beyond email and my time wasted on these boards, D. You seem to have experienced an earthquake recently that I have seen no evidence of huge portions of the U.S. population also experiencing. A little data, please, to clarify this tremor. Five. "The politicians matter little. What matters is how extreme and how quickly this country is hijacked by a movement that is shaking the core of our greatness. Trump symbolizes normalcy. And incidents like these will push people his way." There is plenty of data about how the Trump regime has hijacked the Republican Party and is moving the nation rapidly away from its glory days. That is present in the responsible news media every day of the year. You seem to be alleging something completely opposite, and, of course, with no data to back up what you are alleging. Or perhaps you can, now that you have been challenged. I will be extremely interested in how you can shape Trump into a standard of normalcy.

Rick Czeczok

These sosialist activist on this forum sure seem to like to here themselves talk. They have lost anyone else reading their anti social garbage. Now watch them attack. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA so obvious and I love the way they humor me. Such funny thinking people.

johnnybragatti

They most assuredly lost you Z-Kok, my darling and you are so well aware of the fact, that stupid, cannot and will not be fixed,in your case. But ,in a way, you could be right !!!! Going thru life being a dum-dum, leaves you exempt from realizing how bad you"re actually getting screwed. Don"t feel bad dudesickle, most Trump-Humpers are just as doof-less and uneducated.

PhysicsIsFun

[ban]

PhysicsIsFun

Here you go read this. It will fill you with pride for your country and what it is doing for these desperate people. It's a good thing to be reminded of on our independence day. (https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2019-07/OIG-19-51-Jul19_.pdf)

DMoney

I'm not going to be shamed about our great country this holiday. This is the best country on Earth regardless of who has political control. We do wonderful things for millions of people including non citizens. The good far outweighs the bad and I'm proud of our flag, history and future.

PhysicsIsFun

I am not ashamed of our country, but I am sure ashamed of our country's current leadership.

oldhomey

Well said, Physics.

DMoney

Read your comment again. Oldhomey you read it to. You even refer to it as "your" country. Don't try to walk this one back.

oldhomey

Are you feeling so picked on over your opinionating, D, that you feel you are being excluded when somebody refers to "our" land? Consider it how the poets and songwriters and the framers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution used the word "our", a perfectly appropriate and usable collective adjective. The Declaration often uses the collective "our" (meaning you, me, Physics and everyubody else), including its stirring last sentence: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." Even in some of our greatest patriotic statements in which "our" does not appear, the spirit of those statements reverberate with the understanding that is "our" country, everybody's. Woody Gutherie never used it in his finest song, but the spirit of it is nonetheless in it, as you see from the first course: "This land is your land This land is my land/From California to the New York island;/From the red wood forest to the Gulf Stream waters/This land was made for you and Me." Irving Berlin in his great anthem, God Bless America, doesn't use "our" in it, either, but the collective sense of "our" certainly is infused in the song. I know your ego is bruised, but certainly I did not have in mind excluding you when referring to "our" country, and I am sure Physics, who seems to be a very decent and intelligent person, was not excluding you, either. It is "our" land, yours, mine, Physics'. and even all the hapless sad sacks on here like new2, Ricky, crank/HolmenPackerFan, A Veteran (of no known military service), bozo and others. It belongs to all of us. It has been a great country for 243 years, and despite the efforts of a very corrupt character in the White House currently. it will continue to be. But we have to be cognizant of the con men who would destroy it for their own benefit, so we all have a collective responsibility to keep this wonderful nation that we all own on an honest and just course.

martian2

to answer the question, will the picture make America great again. I'm afraid it will take more than that to change the minds of too many Americans who just don't care. Sad but true. Just look at the posts below and see what I mean.

capedcrusader

DMoney Jul 2, 2019 8:19pm There's no "might " about it. Thousands of American citizens have been murdered by people who have no legal right to be here. It's happening right now. I'm waiting for your explanation on this comment.

DMoney

Did you read the comment I was replying to? If you didn't please do so.

capedcrusader

Try using a little initiative when making outlandish comments like you do on occasion. Try using something more than a Google search.

DMoney

Another thing, still waiting on that comprehensive plan created by Democrats to fix the border problem. But, they still refuse to call it a crisis. So I think I'll be waiting a while.

Jobaba

See "Obama, 8 years" see "Obstructionist Republicans, 8 years."

capedcrusader

I'm still waiting on YOU to tell all of us why you don't trust a country like Saudi Arabia but would be willing , like Trump, to sell them weapons that could be used against us. Please put a little more thought into your answer than something like "there is other countries that I trust even less". Tell the truth and shame the devil.

DMoney

I never said I supported selling them weapons. I never suggested any support for Saudi Arabia whatsoever. Not sure where that's coming from.

capedcrusader

Isn't keeping our military bases there sort of like supporting them? So you disagree with Trump then on his desire to sell them weapons that eventually could be used against us? After what we already know about Saudi Arabia and 9-11, don't you at least consider this to be an immense security risk based on previous intel? The following was our exchange that got me to this point of questioning you. I just thought it peculiar to say the least that people are all wound up about illegal immigrants coming in which I believe are a threat but selling weapons to countries that support international terrorism I believe constitutes a much larger threat to us not only here but over there as well. DMoney Jun 27, 2019 11:13pm Sorry to disappoint you. Not sure what you are looking for. I don't trust or feel good about any middle eastern country. I don't trust a country ruled by a supreme leader or monarch. capedcrusader capedcrusader Jun 28, 2019 9:22pm Just looking for some honest answers that's all. If you don't trust Saudi Arabia would you sell them weapons? If you are against war which I believe you have stated, why would you sell weapons to a country that you don't trust and that they could possibly use against you?

DMoney

*gut wrenching

DMoney

The photo was fit wrenching. It hits home as a Dad with young daughters. But I will use logic. My family and I were blessed to be born in the greatest country on Earth. It's that way because of a combination of freedom, democracy, innovation, geographic location and diversity. It is up to us to keep it great. To do that we must be disciplined, among other things. Discipline means having rules and following them, even when the decision is hard. If we open up the floodgates, yes, less innocent immigrant children will die. But more American citizens will die, at the hands of criminals and potentially terrorists. One day a Dad and his cute daughter might be killed by one. I don't think that picture would be a contender for the Pulitzer prize, though.

PhysicsIsFun

Thanks so much for clearing this up for us. It is nice to have such a clear headed realist to cut through the emotional fog that us liberals are always so blinded by. We just need to accept the death of desperate innocents looking for a better life because some day one of them might be a terrorist.

DMoney

There's no "might " about it. Thousands of American citizens have been murdered by people who have no legal right to be here. It's happening right now. Any person with a heart will view this person and say let them in. But if we make it easier, more of us will be harmed. And the first duty the government has is to protect it's own citizens. Can't do that without regulating the flow of undocumented people in.

johnnybragatti

You are a liar. Give us 1000 murderous immigrants names. They are ,in fact, non-existent. You"re a liar.

Jobaba

Oh wow! Thousands!! That is more than the political "many, many"! The result of the republican scared ninny was the Iraq War. Let's don't do that again?

DMoney

Look it up. Thousands.

martian2

nope, don't be chicken there D, you bought up the thousands killed by illegals so it is up to you to provide the source(s) you use. Are you embarrassed to tell us because of they are of questionable validity. If there is one bad illegal in the bunch, they all must be bad then, right D? Does that make sense to you, help prove your point?

oldhomey

I looked, D, and your blanket statement is very wet and shrinking: "Results from Kilbride’s suggested Google searches included a few lists of citizens killed by illegal aliens and a debunked claim that 63,000 Americans have been killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11. That figure came from an improper reading of a 2011 government report on criminal aliens. "There is no national database of Americans killed by illegal immigrants. State and federal criminal justice systems don’t generally distinguish if those arrested are in the country illegally, or if they entered the country illegally. Many illegal immigrants enter the country legally but overstay visas. (FACT CHECK: Do 40 Percent Of All Illegal Immigrants Overstay Legal Visas?) "Alex Nowrasteh, senior immigration policy analyst at the pro-immigration Cato Institute, was skeptical that available data could say whether thousands of American citizens had been killed by illegal immigrants since 2003. “'Most murders are committed by people who know their victims – like spouses, neighbors, and friends,' Nowrasteh told The Daily Caller News Foundation in an email. 'Thus, a large percentage or even a majority of the victims of illegal immigrant murderers could be other illegal immigrants. That doesn’t make the murder less bad, but it does alter the narrative that ‘illegal immigrants are coming over the border to kill you.' "When considering murders of all civilians, including illegal immigrants, however, Nowrasteh said that Killbride’s quote is very likely correct. "Trump and Kilbride’s claims are very vague – neither cited a specific number, and Trump didn’t provide a timeline."

PhysicsIsFun

There could be criminals among the immigrants just like there could be criminals among citizens. No faction of humanity is immune from this. But immigrants have a huge positive impact on our country. "According to a study by New American Economy—a bipartisan research and advocacy group documenting the economic contributions of immigrants—immigrant-owned businesses employ more than 8 million Americans and add $1 trillion to the U.S. economy. Nearly 750,000 of those entrepreneurs are estimated to be undocumented. Wisconsin’s more than 287,000 immigrants are about 5% of the population, including about 76,000 estimated to be undocumented. Undocumented immigrants in the state pay more than $167 million in national, state and local taxes (while collecting very few government benefits) and spend more than $1.3 billion annually in disposable income. Nationally the undocumented don’t just work in restaurant kitchens and as hotel housekeepers (although they’re about 1/5th of our cooks and 1/4th of our housekeepers). They also play major roles in other crucial industries, comprising about 36% of agricultural workers and 22% of construction workers. John Rosenow, who owns the Rosenholm Dairy in Cochrane, Wis., told Slate that massive deportation of immigrant farm labor would be disastrous for Wisconsin, where he said 80% of milk was harvested by immigrants. “Within days, there wouldn’t be any milk on the shelves,” he said. “A lot of the cows would go to slaughter, and the industry would downsize by at least 50%. There would be a shortage of milk, cheese and butter within maybe a week.” The loss of immigrant farm labor would be one more cruel blow for Trump’s rural voters already suffering directly from his trade war eliminating foreign markets and by his refusal to fight global warming that helped create all the floods washing away farmers’ fields this spring."

DMoney

So let's be clear here: do you, Physics, support open borders and no restrictions to immigration? I just need to understand that. If so, there's no point in discussing this again, because we are on completely opposite pages.

martian2

total asinine questions for physics D. Your extremists questions are a non starter, highly inappropriate and without any basis. Yea as if anyone is for open borders, gee middle schoolers can come up with better questions.

oldhomey

D supplies us with another inelegant statement that boils down to "I got mine, don't nobody ask me for nothin'". There are murderous regimes in Central America, terrorizing and brutalizing their own people. Rather than use that awesome American geopolitical leverage that you so fulsomely praise when Trump uses it to threaten our close allies, D,, d'ya think we should be pushing back on these nations that are sending hundreds of thousands of desperate victims scurrying for our borders in search of safety? The Democrats, by the way, sent their plan in the form of a House bill last week, but sucked it up and voted for an inferior Senate plan in order to get desperately needed funding for humanitarian relief at the border. You do know that word, don't you, D -- humanitarian? Your logic is not exactly on display here. Adhering to ideological cant is not logic. And in this case it is folly.

martian2

perfect homey! D and his logic and lies are so intertwined you can't have one without the other. Instead of helping those central American countries that are in desperate straights, Trump cuts off aid to them, making the crisis at the border worse. You may call that logic D, I call it stupidity.

DMoney

The crisis is some bad people coming in here that can and so harm people with a legal right to be here. That's a crisis. The people coming here to escape bad situations at home should know the situation and decide if it's worth it. I think they ought to change the circumstances in their home country. Like our ancestors did.

oldhomey

Well, D, tell us what Americans did to change the violent circumstances in our own country? Did we have a nation reigned over by a corrupt government with thoroughly corrupt law enforcement that worked hand in hand with national gangs of murderous thugs preying on every citizen in the country? When was that era of American history. I didn't read those history books, I guess. Enlighten the rest of us. Tell us how you would change the circumstances if you, as a businessman, were told to pay steep protection money taxes to criminal gangs or face a violent death while your wife and daughters would be violated at will by thugs. You couldn't, of course, go to the police, because they are in on the criminal action. Would you get your gun out and rally your neighbors with deer rifles and skeet shooting shotguns to face down huge gangs armed with military assault rifles? Would your military assault rifle make you any safer? I WILL, however, grant you that we are now being ruled by the worst, most corrupt president in the nation's history, and he is doing his best to corrupt our regulatory agencies and justice department. This corrupt president and his base of followers feel his greatest accomplishment is packing the Supreme Court with extremist right wing ideologue justices who just gave the individual states permission to allow political parties that can no longer muster a majority of votes in their own states to hang on to power through manipulating ballots and gerrymandering. That is a great recipe for political and economic corruption on a scale we have not seen before. So we as an electorate may have to change the corrupt circumstances in this country. I hope I am dead and gone so that I do not have to see how it is done.

DMoney

We were ruled by tyrants. We launched a revolution. We won. We created a better government. People died, it was ugly, but in victory came justification.

oldhomey

D, we were ruled in 1776 by a foreign power two months away from us by sailing ship, and, while they were sending armed troops here to try to bring Americans to heel, they were not robbing them and raping and killing the womenfolk. In Central America you have nations that have dissolved into chaos, their own people preying on each other. It is a completely different situation and dynamic, but I guess, being the student of history and the sharpest tack on these boards when it comes to geopolitics as you boast about being, you knew this already but ignored it because it gets in the way of your specious argument.

johnnybragatti

got way,way,way outta here Home!!! Spilled a few beers on the way. Perfecto!!! Danke Schoen !!!

DMoney

Yeah, if they aren't citizens then I really just don't care that much. For better or worse. I'm not sorry. It's sad to see a child die. I don't blame the USA, Trump for that death.

martian2

well thank you for revealing your sleaziness D. Not caring that much because of someone's citizenship status is pure fascism. Yes here I go again telling you the truth. Nazis used the same technique to justify "othering" the jews and took their citizenship away. And they took away their right to live. You are a despicable person, full of hate and wrath. Do us all a favor and don't pass along that hate to you kids. Now how about the sources that say thousands have been slain by illegals. Come on there chicken little, fess up or shut up!

DMoney

I didn't say I wanted to round up and kill millions of them. I didn't say I considered them to be subhuman. How disrespectful of you towards the victims of those crimes.

martian2

yes you did D, you consider them sub human. If they aren't citizens they don't matter to you. That is about as disrespectful as it can get. You didn't fess up about your slanderous statement about thousands being killed by illegals as you call them. Not caring about your fellow humans is a first step to eventually wanting them to die and go away. I recall another time in human history this happened. Its a slippery slope D, and you seem to be greased up and ready to slide by your indifference to your fellow humans.

DMoney

I do not want them to die. But I do want them to go away, and come back when they are legally allowed to. For ours and their sake (see tragic picture).

oldhomey

Despite your efforts to try to soften it since making it, D, this is about as disrespectful as you can get about people in desperate need of help: "Yeah, if they aren't citizens then I really just don't care that much. For better or worse. I'm not sorry. It's sad to see a child die. I don't blame the USA, Trump for that death."

DMoney

I stand by my comments. I do not sympathize with people who make a choice to come here illegally and then face tough conditions once here. We owe them nothing legally. And it's their fault morally. They should know the circumstances.

oldhomey

What makes you speculate about the Pulitzer Prize and that photo, D? A strange diversion from you. In fact, I would think that photo is a Pulitzer Prize right out of the gate. It has the quality that great news photos must have to win a Pulitzer. It may not be artsy or beautiful, but it is not only germane to one of the great issues of the day, it is so painful and shocking that it now in some ways defines the issue, like the picture of the South Vietnamese officer blowing the brains out of a Viet Cong fighter on the street in Saigon during the Tet offensive, or the little girl burned by napalm running down the road in Vietnam. We must be disciplined and respond to the giant human tragedy on the border by being humane and systematic in considering in a lawful manner the case of each of these people seeking asylum here. Hundreds of thousand will, as they have always been, turned away as they were in the past, but we will not have this disgraceful Hobbesian horror show that Trump through his stupidity, lack of a plan and naked politicking to his own base has created at border. Did you read that our border agents took away all phones and cameras from Congressional delegates visiting the compounds holding the asylum seekers at the border? They know the power of a photograph showing outrageous conditions, and they were afraid that the Congressional delegates might be able to back up their verbal descriptions of the outrage with actual photos of it. That is the power of a photograph in these situations.

DMoney

Not arguing the power of a photograph or the appropriateness of this one. Just saying that if a violent criminal enters the country illegally, murders a child, I bet that photo doesn't receive the same attention and reverence. It wouldn't have the same emotional, political appeal.

martian2

oh boy that is about as racist and white nationalist as it can get there D. You probably don't realize how stupid a statement you just made. Wow, can't believe you actually have kids. How about that source about illegals and thousands of murders. Come on man, you opened that can of worms, own up to it, grow a set!

oldhomey

That is your response to my 9:54pm post, D? I suggest you forget about the photo and whether or not it is Pulitzer-worthy. All that is beside the point when it comes to the much larger question of what Donald Trump is engineering on the border. It is a terrible, inhumane thing, and that is what you should be concentrated on. The photo just underscores it. As for your "if a violent criminal enters the country illegally, murders a child" speculation, would you not think among the thousands of murders you claim illegals are annually committing in this country there might already be a few child victims in there? It is just another example of your speciousness of thinking. It also calls into question your protestations of never dealing with speculation, only with cold, true facts and reality.

DMoney

I'm sure there have been children murdered already. Funny how I don't recall any gutwrenching and widely publicized photos of the victims. Thanks for helping to illustrate my point.

DMoney

"In 2015, there were 785 total homicide convictions in Texas. Of those, native-born Americans were convicted of 709 homicides (a conviction rate of 3.1 per 100,000), illegal immigrants were convicted of 46 homicides (2.6 per 100,000)" In one year, in one state, there were 46 illegal immigrants convicted of homicide. We're almost 5% of the way to 1,000 (your trigger number) in one year in one state. Now figure 50 states in say the past 50 years. Do a little math.

DMoney

And the domestic murder rate, why appalling, has nothing to do with murders committed by those who shouldn't even be here. Domestic problems are a separate issue than those caused by non-citizens. The source is Washington Post by the way.

oldhomey

Well, D, I am glad to see you resort to actual facts. The ones you provide seem to pretty strongly indicate that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than the general U.S. population. I have to admit that mathematics is not my forte. Still, I am having a very difficult time seeing how the Texas figures you provide has us on our way to seeing 1,000 homicides by illegal aliens annually in one state. You don't provide the raw materials of doing "a little math" from what I can gather.

martian2

still D does not provide his sources, He just writes down numbers from one state out of the blue. NO references, no facts, no nothing. Hard to believe he went to college. Must of plagiarized all his term papers, he got away with not revealing sources. Even if the numbers are true for Texas in one year, compare that to North Dakota and what do you get. Add it all up over fifty years and what do you get? I don't know, it doesn't make sense to do so. but thats how D operates, without a full deck.

DMoney

I never said annually.

oldhomey

Good Lord, D! What ARE you talking about? If you are measuring the number of murders by illegal aliens over three or four decades, of course the absolute number is going to look high, until you compare it to the number of murders in the same period by U.S. citizens. If you bothered to, you might find on a per capita basis the numbers of murders by legal immigrants over that same period might not differ much from illegals. If you are going to sell the goods on these boards, at least come in with a more believable sales pitch.

DMoney

Murder committed by legal citizens are a domestic problem. That's the whole point. We've got enough problems in-house to deal with before worrying about crimes committed by people who shouldn't even legally be here. It's like pouring a little gasoline on an already raging fire--dont need it.

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