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Wow, we're getting a lecture from a Prog newspaper from Madison on the subject of deficit spending. That same newspaper will back Sanders who will blow up the entire economy with so much deficit spending he himself can't even estimate the amount.


I am counting your appearances on these boards, Red. Are you? Why don't you blow the flies and fleas off of your wallet and subscribe to the paper so that you can comment to your heart's content, and also be content that in a small way you are helping to preserve one of the greatest institutions invented by mankind, the newspaper.

Rick Czeczok

Tell us about your Vietnam experience again old man. You know the one you bragged about on this board over the years to make yourself look good at different times and different subjects. Let me compile them all for the people so they can see just what a great guy you are, and why we should all listen to every word you say.

1 Dodged the war by going to collage.

2 He admitted that he did not want to attend collage

3 Mommy and Daddy made him go to save their widdle boy to leave others fight for his sorry well being

4 After collage he did go to Vietnam, not to fight, but to work and make a profit off the war while others his very age were dying in the rice paddies. He bragged about that one.

5 Worked until he was 72 because he was broke because he blew his life savings, as well as what mommy and daddy left him. Based on really bad decisions he himself made.

6 Held his work place at bay for severance pay to get rid of him, because he didn't keep up with technology he was responsible to do.

7 Survives off a little pension and his SS

This is not a man to listen to as he is part of a socialist movement that writes in papers all over this country. Real piece of work this one is. Oh he writes using a computer generated writer, makes him look good. Wonder why he has that, sounds like a scam to me from the DNC.

He and his henchmen on this board took control by attacking anyone who doesn't agree with there every word. If you read their comments they are almost verbatim to those told on the fake news the day before.

Quite the group of comedians or at least they are a joke. Deceit and deception is their MO. Nothing ever anything positive about what is going on, but always negative , unless the democrats say it. Their leaders and idles are Pelosi, Nadler, Schiff, and Schumer. I have seen their leadership skills in the last 6 months and if that's the best you have no wonder Biden is the candidate of choice. A man showing every symptom of onset of Dementia.


Well it looks like the middle class can expect another useless tax cut, pretty soon they are going to amount to something. I kind of lump Trumps initiatives into a bundle and they all look good. Being energy independent keeps gas prices affordable and it helps the poor a great deal, the rich can afford high gas prices no matter how high, the poor can not. The low unemployment affords the poor to move on to other higher paying jobs, the rich don’t need a higher paying job. Economic growth spurs gains in retirement plans, 401k’s, the rich do not need money from pensions or 401k’s to do well, they are already financially secure. The average wage increases of 3.6% have gone to the lower wage earners by far, the rich don’t work for a wage. Keeping illegals from taking jobs and keeping the wage rates low benefits the poorest earners, it does not affect the rich, as a matter of fact, they are the ones supplying the jobs by hiring the illegals and keeping wages from rising, employers forced to pay more when there is a shortage of workers, supply and demand, the poor benefit. Fair trade keeps the economy growing and fair trade means increased jobs and wages to keep the economy growing, that helps the poor, the rich do not need more money. Now take each of these items and add them together and you see a brighter future, remove any or all of these issues and you have the Democrat platform for the country. Then throw in 180 million folks losing their employer based heath care which they have paid for over the decades. Then add this, forgiving all college debt forcing those who have saved for their children’s education to pay for it and then asking these folks to pay for the illegals as well. You can imagine with open borders and free college how many illegals would participate, not only from Mexico bit China, Africa, Middle East, Russia, any country that is failing. After all why would someone stay in a country like that when everything here is free and paid for by others.


You are such a drama queen.


Well, new2, there are statistics, as the saying goes, and there are dam*ed statistic. I know how Fox News and the Heritage Foundation get cute with economic statistics, taking a targeted group that is doing a bit better and broadcasting it like it represents what is happening generally in the economy. If there is a group of low-paid workers whose incomes have gone up 3.6%, I wonder if it might be the minimum wage workers that employers under intense political pressure have had to raise with mandated higher minimum wages. Certainly most middle class workers aren't doing very well on the wage front under Trump. Here is a partial analysis that has an opposite view of your rosy picture:

"The middle-class Americans who are the main targets of Trump’s economic pitch aren’t sharing much in the gains of U.S. growth. Worse yet for Trump, wage growth has been slower in the counties he carried in 2016.

"That risks blunting his message with the Republican political base just as he’s turning to GOP lawmakers to defend him against an accelerating effort by Democrats to impeach him.

"By several measures, middle-class Americans’ incomes have risen more slowly under Trump than during Barack Obama’s final years -- hardly a period renowned for gangbuster pay increases. Workers should finally be getting big raises with the unemployment rate down to 3.5%. Yet while wage growth picked up last year, it is still subdued and slowing again after manufacturing output contracted in the first half of the year.

"Fhe economy’s overall performance hasn’t changed much since Trump took office, with GDP growth averaging 2.6% versus 2.4% during Obama’s second term. That’s far below Trump’s own forecasts. On Wednesday, the Commerce Department reported the economy expanded 1.9% at an annualized rate in the third quarter, a level that when Obama was president Trump derided as a sign the “economy is in deep trouble.”

"While the jobless rate continued to fall during during Trump’s first two years, median household income, adjusted for inflation, grew at an average annual rate of 1.3%. That’s down from a 4.1% annual rate the previous two years and a 1.8% annual rate during Obama’s entire second term, according to U.S. Census data released last month."

There was much more, but that is enough for now, don't you think, new2?


Apparently Pence isn't a Republican nor a conservative: https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/deficit-vp-mike-pence-gives-away-game-n1137006?cid=sm_fb_maddow


Oh, and welcome back DMoney! It's been awhile and you must finally have some time on your hands. For once we agree with something regarding the debt. But, I'm wondering where you came up with Trump really isn't a Republican nor a conservative. Outside of the debt issue that we agree on can you follow up and give some examples of why Trump really isn't a Republican nor a conservative? All things given that he has offered up don't indicate that to me . I'd like your specific take on the matters.


I have some time and beginning soon, these comments may matter more leading into election season. As for Trump not "really" being a conservative--see most of Oldhomey's points regarding the budget below (ignoring his slanted, biased opinion on WHY he does such things). Also, a true Conservative follows the Constitution as written. If Trump were unchallenged by a system of checks and balances, I think we can all agree almost everything would change in some shape or form. He's a reformer, and that's the opposite of being a conservative.


Wow! Our resident political philosopher, the deep-thinking, superbly well-read D has surmised that Trump is not a conservative, he is (and I cap this for dramatic effect) a REFORMER! I think we can all lock arms and rest easy, now, that we have this great leader taking us down the path to reform, a job he seems to be doing by stocking the federal system with more swamp creatures, toadies and opportunists than have ever been seen in the history of the republic. I cannot speak for anybody else, as our dear friend, crank, has made abundantly clear, but I for one will read your commentaries with deep appreciation for the knowledge you impart from now on, D.


This is the one fact that is irrefutably a failure of the the Trump administration. Many other points are debatable--but not this one. The fact that Trump has done nothing to not only FIX the deficit, but ADD to it in record numbers is completely unacceptable. If the Democrats were smart, they would hammer this point home during the upcoming race and debates. I was worried about this prior to voting for Trump, because he's not really a conservative or a Republican and doesn't believe in our root values. It's not enough for me to change my vote, but it certainly will be a stain on his legacy (a factual, actual, real one).


Well, as the current jargon in political discourse has it, DMoney, let's unpack why the deficit is shooting up under Trump at a time that we should be paying it down. You have been a huge fan of the tax cuts, though I doubt that they made much of a difference in your life or lifestyle, as the only people who got huge benefits from it were those already very rich, from $50 million in net worth on up, I guess, and, of course, the giant corporations, who were supposed to re-invest their tax savings in their businesses but did not. So that means the hundreds of billions in tax saving is not in any appreciable way recirculating in the economy to help it grow the way Trump said it would. So, seeing the failure of the tax cuts, would you get behind eliminating them? The tax savings for you and me are supposed to expire in a couple of years, but not for the super rich. Of course the other way of reducing the deficit is taking huge whacks out of spending. You, of course, would never accede to pouring ever more money into the defense budget, particularly since Trump views that as his own piggy bank, allowing him to re-direct billions allocated for Congressionally specified purposes to his own, political purposes. No, I am sure you would rather see the already poor bear the burden for this, taking away whatever safety nets the federal government already provides, and by taking away Social Security and Medicare for old people like me because, sheesh, we're at the end of the line, anyway, so what difference does it make if we die uncomfortably in poverty? And, of course, the government has no business in your mind to assure people have adequate medical care, so, as long as you have an arrangement that you can affordably cover yourself in your family, what the hell do you care about 70 million or so people who will have none if Trump succeeds in getting rid of the Affordable Care Act? And, I am sure, you deeply believe Trump when he says that the Republicans will replace Obamacare with something far superior, making the Republican Party known to posterity as the party of health care for all. Is this what you meant when you say allowing the deficit to grow is an irrefutable failure of the Trump administration? I am SO distressed that your feeling that way will strain your decision to vote for Trump again, though, presumably, very little actual strain will be present in you.


I think your post summed up the feelings of perhaps 150 million Americans. I hope they vote their true feelings this time as well as their pocketbooks. If I could give you a blue ribbon for that post I would.


"Is this what you meant when you say allowing the deficit to grow is an irrefutable failure of the Trump administration?" Answer: Pretty much, yes. Minus most of your opinion on the cause and effect of such actions like Trump diverting military dollars for political gain. By that, you mean funding the wall. Which is an absolute necessity (although I would have preferred Mexico to pay for it as promised). Trump has gotten NATO members to increase funding. He's gotten SK to provide more towards their own defense. The Air Force and Navy are currently preparing for massive cuts and reorganization. There is still hope that things get back on track fiscally from now to 2024. But I doubt it.


Well DMoney you still sound pretty much like you support Trump. I don't but I do support much of your doubt though. (like the economy getting back on track and by that I take it to mean our debt). I would bet anyone that the deficit will still be on the rise by the end of Trumps next term. Trump was grandstanding with his comments about getting Mexico to pay for our wall. They were never going to and their leaders even said so. There is so much more involved with our security down there than Trumps wall and the investment has been getting made even before he became President. All he is doing is trying to take credit for something already in the works for years. I have no problem with good security only that Trump has went about it the wrong way. Btw, you were also wrong about SK and their missile testing. You were another that disappeared for awhile there like several others and didn't respond back about that.


Yes, you nailed it. I "pretty much" support Trump. I do so without passion. I do not "love" him. I won't be wearing a red hat. But, he's the candidate we have and I've yet to find a moderate Democrat I can get behind and it looks like I won't. I liked the CEO from Starbucks that was going to run. I wouldn't be devastated if Klobuchar won. There's a 98% I'll be voting for Trump--and that's because our two party system sucks. Regarding North Korea--I never said they wouldn't test missles. Nor did Trump. No guarantees were made. I DID say that I doubted they would test anymore nukes or BALLISTIC missiles. Which they haven't. There's a world of difference between missiles and ballistic missiles.


correction--Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, or ICBM's.


Well, you sort of answered me... I would have to check back again but I still believe you claimed NK stopped testing missiles and were more than happy to give credit to Trump. I never believed he would stop and Trump had no affect on it whatsoever. Meanwhile Un's policies continue... You also never explained the comment about the Air Force and Navy "preparing for massive cuts and reorganization".


I do give Trump credit for the current state of affairs with NK. If you look at how the past 10-15 years went, and then the past 1.5 years it's a night and day difference. On a regular basis, NK was testing nukes, testing ICBM's, firing artillery at SK troops, engaging in naval skirmishes with SK, threatening nuclear war with the US. When's the last time ANY of that has happened since Trump made an unprecedented and historic visit to NK and made a direct working relationship with their world leader? Obama, the "great statesman", never made an attempt to fix the problem. Nor did Bush, Clinton or anyone. Trump did, and the results have been astonishingly successful. I would say it's been his greatest achievement in foreign policy. Now, that could all cease to matter if NK does test a nuke or ICBM. Never know what they will do. But it's worked great so far, it's been 1.5 years of true peace. For the first time in many, many years.

Regarding the air force and navy, they are both preparing big cuts to their equipment inventories. Phasing out outdated and excess ships and planes. I have no idea whether that is a result of trying to cut budget, but, it would suggest that there is pressure to become more efficient. At the end of the day, Trump needs to get the spending under control. He hasn't done that at all, and it's unacceptable. The problem is, what Democrat would? Fiscal responsibility is not exactly a hallmark of the left.


Well i don't agree with that at all. I've said it before and i'll say it again. Trumps visit to NK is just like the cheerleaders in the NFL. Nice to see but doesn't get the players to perform better. I don't think much of anything has changed between our countries since Trump came in. In fact, Dennis Rodman had as much of an impact as Trump. Trumps visit was a dod and pony show. And your comment about the Dems fiscal accountability? Then why the continued deficit spending that's out of control? If you look back it's the Democrats who have always wanted to get military spending and accountability under control. It's the Republican Party that believes the Defense Dept should get a blank check. I think you give Trump way to much credit for the things he had very little to do with and I stand by my earlier post that if he would have followed Bush we would have entered and even greater recession. Trump has done more to divide this country than any President since I've been alive. That's not what a real leader does.


Well, D, I googled "North Korean incursions historically", and it listed them all from the 1950s onward. I will restrict this from 2010, onward, when there were 10 of them, five of them after Trump took office. So he really calmed things down there, I guess, to exactly the same rate as they were occurring before he took office. Good one.

As for Trump getting the North Koreans to put a lid on their nuclear aspirations, here is what has been happening in North Korea since last December:

--1 December: North Korea announced it had recently conducted a "very important test" at its Sohae site. Some analysts believed the test involved a new ICBM engine, as the country was believed to be migrating from its liquid-fueled missiles to new solid-fueled versions that were easier to transport, conceal and launch.[88]

--14 December: The country announced it had conducted a "crucial test' at the Sohae site.[89]

--21 December: The New York Times reported that "American military and intelligence officials tracking North Korea’s actions by the hour say they are bracing for an imminent test of an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of reaching American shores, but appear resigned to the fact that President Trump has no good options to stop it." Pyongyang had previously promised a "Christmas gift" if progress was not seen on relaxation of American sanctions.[90][91] NBC News published commercial satellite photos showing what appeared to be the production and modification of ICBM launchers at a Pyongsong site.[92]

--31 December: The Korean Central News Agency announced that Kim had abandoned his moratoriums on nuclear and intercontinental ballistic missile tests, quoting Kim as saying, "the world will witness a new strategic weapon to be possessed by the DPRK in the near future."[93][94]

I can only speak for myself, D, but I am SO grateful that a man with the acute and deep knowledge of geopolitical issues is on these boards advising us of what is actually going on. Good one, again.


"It’s one thing to run up large deficits when the economy is in recession". This is the thing Republicans never understand. They act like Trump took us out of the depths of despair. Obama did that. Thousands of jobs were being lost the last several years of the Bush/Cheney reign of terror. Lucky for our country (despite what New2lax says) Trump didn't follow those people or we could have ended up with a Great Depression. Apparently deficits only matter when a Democrat is in the White House. We should all know better by now.


Call it what you want--but the reality is, during Trump's first term, there are hardly any factually negative results, in any area. Liberals showed their hand the day after election in 2016 when they declared open and unconditional war on Trump and his supporters. Actions and emotions from the left have followed suit. The attacks and deception against him and the right have been as transparent as they are groundless. Did he bring us back from the depths of despair? No--we were never that bad off. But he's done a hell of a job as President--and you can't prove otherwise.


I'd like you to prove that he's done "one hell of a job" directly attributable to his actions. Since, you admit that we were never that bad off... I'm glad that you said that because before Obama became President we were that bad off... And you don't need to go off topic with "liberals showed their hand" comments. Did you really expect them not too especially after the Republicans "showed their hand" when Obama became President? They made it VERY clear they were not going to work with Democrats on much of anything. That's the hand they showed. In fact the Republicans showed their hand in the aftermath of Watergate and Robert Bork and it's been nothing but that hand ever since. When you are driven primarily by revenge you can't expect anything less.


Need to start by looking at what's changed for US citizens for the worse? Can you name anything? How is your life, mine, anyones been negatively impacted as a direct result of the Trump presidency? I imagine there are farmers and other industries affected by the Trade war with China. But there are always exceptions. For the vast majority--what has changed for the worse? If the answer is "it hasn't, then we are starting at neutral. ANything that HAS been done by Trump would then be for the better. The economy, regardless of who gets credit, has been improved. We haven't entered into any new wars. Our allies are paying more. Less illegal immigrants are getting in and trying to get in. We haven't lost any allies or friends. ISIS was defeated as an organized unit. We've taken out notorious terrorists. Our military is strong. We have the new and improved trade deal with Canada/Mexico and now China. In lieu of any evidence of direct negative results to the US citizens--these things are positive and must be credited as so.


How has the economy been improved and then elaborate on why you think our nation has become more divided under Trump than perhaps it's ever been. I think things may be good for you but I think you are looking through Kaleidoscope eyes...


D is the classic Trump supporter, tut-tutting that he, ahem, PERSONALLY, finds Trump's behavior vile and odious, but, gosh, despite all the awful things he is doing, D ends up being a prize Trump apologist day in and day out, because Trump, I guess, speaks to D's biases.


Good Lord, D, quit pretending to being so dammed ingenuous. Let's just take one issue with Trump -- his relationship with the Russians. He has bent over backwards repeatedly to cover for them and their hostile acts against us and our allies. Do you remember his shameful display in Helsinki, standing side by side with Putin, taking Putin's word that Russia did not interfere in our 2016 elections, while our intelligence agencies (which he never listens to) said otherwise? Have you read the Mueller report? It is irrefutable that the Trump campaign had constant contact with Russian operatives throughout the 2016 campaign. The impeachment proceedings proved beyond any doubt that he was asking a foreign power to help him in the 2020 elections. You say he was absolved in the impeachment trial? Ho ho! You know very well that the Republican Senate gave him a pass on this by refusing to consider any evidence, telling the world going into the vote that they would not vote to impeach. Trump has been recorded on camera on national news broadcasts saying he would welcome help from foreign powers in his re-election bid. You think this behavior serves our nation?

You saw Trump's reckless use of tariffs, gaining the U.S. nothing but billions of lost income from a nation that already has a huge trade advantage over us, then watching him spend billions more in tax dollars to try to buy off angry farmers.

You have seen Trump back off every trade agreement and every defense treaty the U.S. has been engaged in, leaving the world in turmoil and our reputation as a nation in tatters. Saying it is not will not change our loss in standing, young man.

You defend a man who cannot stop himself from grabbing every available megaphone, using them to spew an endless stream of lies and invective, the likes of which has never been seen in American public life before, and simply unconscionable coming from the White House.

You need proof? It is happening EVERY SINGLE DAY with Trump, and it is recorded just as equally on right wing faux news outlets like Fox and Brightbart. PUH-LEEZE don't get cute asking for proof of what is there right under your nose.

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